Bidam: Yeah..The brother is removing all those junks taught him by the sunday school teachers that Jesus came to abolish the law. Just like mosthigh pointed out a poignant point. How do i teach my children the bible? Should i tell them ok receive the Holy Spirit IJN? or should i with wisdom follow this wise sayings of Solomon.

Proverbs 22:6

New King James Version (NKJV)

6 Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it.

So its a new doctrine after all!

There is this lady on this forum that quoted Gbile Akaani once and said something to this effect: "If it is true, it is not new; if it is new beware, it is not true"

There is nothing new about the doctrine of grace; What is new is this keeping of the Torah after salvation.

I have asked others and they had no answers to it, so I ask you too. You want us to keep the Torah. Fine. Which one of the Torah laws should we keep? And if we are not to keep every one of them, will we not be doing injustice to the scriptures below:

Galatians 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

DrummaBoy:

So its a new doctrine after all!

There is this lady that quoted Gbile Akaani once and said something like this "If it is true, it is not new; if it is new beware, it has the high likelihood of not being true"

There is nothing new about the doctrine of grace; What is new is this keeping of the Torah after salvation.

I have asked others and they had no answers to it, so I ask you too. You want us to keep the Torah. Fine. Which one of the Torah laws should we keep? And if we are not to keep every one of them, will we not be doing injustice to the scriptures below:

Regarding what LAWS you should keep look to the lifestyle of yashua Ibn Joseph and the apostles for the answer

And dont go calling them Schizrophrenic hypocrytes or pretenders or whatever shededemi calls it.

Is your member not circumkscised??

Or is it stinky and smelly and do you have to clean it everyday with cotton wool

If thats the case then I fell sorry for you

If the opposite is the case then you are a hypocryte like your father

Cherry picking law changing children of the little horn

Whats that phrase again...

O yes SUPERMARKET CHRISTIAN.

DrummaBoy:

So its a new doctrine after all!

There is this lady on this forum that quoted Gbile Akaani once and said something to this effect: "If it is true, it is not new; if it is new beware, it is not true"

I'm glad you quoted that. Did you know that the pre-tribulation rapture is a 200 year old theory? Do you believe in that?

Keeping torah was part of life for 1st century believers. GO and read what constantine and other roman rulers did. Jewish customs are at odd with Roman pagan traditions. And you have us believe that these people preserved the truth? Get real brother

MostHigh:

Regarding what LAWS you should keep look to the lifestyle of yashua Ibn Joseph and the apostles for the answer

And dont go calling them Schizrophrenic hypocrytes or pretenders or whatever shededemi calls it.

Is your member not circumkscised??

Or is it stinky and smelly and do you have to clean it everyday with cotton wool

If thats the case then I fell sorry for you

If the opposite is the case then you are a hypocryte like your father

Cherry picking law changing children of the little horn

Whats that phrase again...

O yes SUPERMARKET CHRISTIAN.

hahahaha
We Nigerians (and various other groups of africans) circumcise and name our children on the 8th day beause this is one of the traditions our ancestors clinged to, after being "scattered" to the corners of the earth. We are Hebrews

JesusisLord85:

hahahaha
We Nigerians (and various other groups of africans) circumcise and name our children on the 8th day beause this is one of the traditions our ancestors clinged to, after being "scattered" to the corners of the earth. We are Hebrews

Very very true Sire.

JesusisLord85:

I'm glad you quoted that. Did you know that the pre-tribulation rapture is a 200 year old theory? Do you believe in that?

Keeping torah was part of life for 1st century believers. GO and read what constantine and other roman rulers did. Jewish customs are at odd with Roman pagan traditions. And you have us believe that these people preserved the truth? Get real brother

Obviuosly the man never heard of the council of laodacia and the outcome

MostHigh:

Obviuosly the man never heard of the council of laodacia and the outcome

lol, that and various others. In fact we should post it for them. I wonder how they will twist it. Spiritual gymnastics

jesusislord.

I dont like it when I am directed to a site. does it mean you are not sure of your faith or you cant prove it beyond reasonable doubt? when I went there I never saw anything related to our topic, i was just directed to a site. what am I going to do with it?

I want to respond to that Rom. 3:31 because i have seen that many of you quote it.

Paul was never contradicting his statements in Ephisians and collosians in this verse, but this verse will be understood if we check the point Paul was trying to make.

Paul was discussing the benefit of the law.

- without the law we would not have known that we ALL are sinners from birth. Both jews and gentiles. 3:23

the law also made us know that we are to look for a perfect sacrifice that will wipe our sins forever, not yearly as the blood of bulls does. Heb 10: 1-4 read

- so the law pointed to the need for a perfect sacrifice to which we could be declared righteous. 3:20. Gal. 3:24-25 read.

So the law established that a) we are sinners b) we need a perfect sacrifice. c) it justify God when he declares people righteous. 3:25-26.

Now this law got its confirmation by the arrival and death of Jesus Christ to whom it points to as our hope for eternal existence cos the blood of animals cannot do it.

So does faith abolish law? No. Rather it CONFIRMS or ESTABLISHES the TRUENESS of the law.

In otherwords, the law of faith (which is predicated on Jesus) CONFIRMS the trueness of the law, as the law points to it or has it as its chief goal. That is what the context of this verse means.

If the Messiah didnt come, then law would have been abolished as to its falsehood cos the blood of bulls is offered regularly for sin as such incapable of wiping away sin forever. Read hebrews above.

Of course, we can never say that the law was not established until Jesus came. Neither are christians reestablishing it.

Rather we establish that the law is really true as it lead us to the law of faith, which is based on Jesus Christ.

I am responding for the benefit of others hence you failed to have a meaningful discussion.

we determine the meaning of a scripture based on its context and what other parts of the bible say on the subject under discussion.

Jman05,

Grace and truth that came by our Lord Jesus Christ be MULTIPLIED unto you!

JesusisLord85:

hahahaha
We Nigerians (and various other groups of africans) circumcise and name our children on the 8th day beause this is one of the traditions our ancestors clinged to, after being "scattered" to the corners of the earth. We are Hebrews

Delusion

Phillipians 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

We are the circumcision. We are the true spiritual Isrealites.

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

FYI

^ Great Grace, Great POWER to your heritage in CHRIST!

JMAN05: jesusislord.

I dont like it when I am directed to a site. does it mean you are not sure of your faith or you cant prove it beyond reasonable doubt? when I went there I never saw anything related to our topic, i was just directed to a site. what am I going to do with it?

I want to respond to that Rom. 3:31 because i have seen that many of you quote it.

Paul was never contradicting his statements in Ephisians and collosians in this verse, but this verse will be understood if we check the point Paul was trying to make.

Paul was discussing the benefit of the law.

- without the law we would not have known that we ALL are sinners from birth. Both jews and gentiles. 3:23

the law also made us know that we are to look for a perfect sacrifice that will wipe our sins forever, not yearly as the blood of bulls does. Heb 10: 1-4 read

- so the law pointed to the need for a perfect sacrifice to which we could be declared righteous. 3:20. Gal. 3:24-25 read.

So the law established that a) we are sinners b) we need a perfect sacrifice. c) it justify God when he declares people righteous. 3:25-26.

Now this law got its confirmation by the arrival and death of Jesus Christ to whom it points to as our hope for eternal existence cos the blood of animals cannot do it.

So does faith abolish law? No. Rather it CONFIRMS or ESTABLISHES the TRUENESS of the law.

In otherwords, the law of faith (which is predicated on Jesus) CONFIRMS the trueness of the law, as the law points to it or has it as its chief goal. That is what the context of this verse means.

If the Messiah didnt come, then law would have been abolished as to its falsehood cos the blood of bulls is offered regularly for sin as such incapable of wiping away sin forever. Read hebrews above.

Of course, we can never say that the law was not established until Jesus came. Neither are christians reestablishing it.

Rather we establish that the law is really true as it lead us to the law of faith, which is based on Jesus Christ.

I am responding for the benefit of others hence you failed to have a meaningful discussion.

we determine the meaning of a scripture based on its context and what other parts of the bible say on the subject under discussion.

Tell em about this {new} law of faith which you speak of. What would be revealed in the time of Christ, I can see in the law and the prophets, please point me to where I can find out about your law of faith which is supposedly different to the instruction of God (Torah).
Looking forward to that

JMAN05: jesusislord.

I dont like it when I am directed to a site. does it mean you are not sure of your faith or you cant prove it beyond reasonable doubt? when I went there I never saw anything related to our topic, i was just directed to a site. what am I going to do with it?

I want to respond to that Rom. 3:31 because i have seen that many of you quote it.

Paul was never contradicting his statements in Ephisians and collosians in this verse, but this verse will be understood if we check the point Paul was trying to make.

Paul was discussing the benefit of the law.

- without the law we would not have known that we ALL are sinners from birth. Both jews and gentiles. 3:23

the law also made us know that we are to look for a perfect sacrifice that will wipe our sins forever, not yearly as the blood of bulls does. Heb 10: 1-4 read

- so the law pointed to the need for a perfect sacrifice to which we could be declared righteous. 3:20. Gal. 3:24-25 read.

So the law established that a) we are sinners b) we need a perfect sacrifice. c) it justify God when he declares people righteous. 3:25-26.

Now this law got its confirmation by the arrival and death of Jesus Christ to whom it points to as our hope for eternal existence cos the blood of animals cannot do it.

So does faith abolish law? No. Rather it CONFIRMS or ESTABLISHES the TRUENESS of the law.

In otherwords, the law of faith (which is predicated on Jesus) CONFIRMS the trueness of the law, as the law points to it or has it as its chief goal. That is what the context of this verse means.

If the Messiah didnt come, then law would have been abolished as to its falsehood cos the blood of bulls is offered regularly for sin as such incapable of wiping away sin forever. Read hebrews above.

Of course, we can never say that the law was not established until Jesus came. Neither are christians reestablishing it.

Rather we establish that the law is really true as it lead us to the law of faith, which is based on Jesus Christ.

I am responding for the benefit of others hence you failed to have a meaningful discussion.

we determine the meaning of a scripture based on its context and what other parts of the bible say on the subject under discussion.

Tell em about this {new} law of faith which you speak of. What would be revealed in the time of Christ, I can see in the law and the prophets, please point me to where I can find out about your law of faith which is supposedly different to the instruction of God (Torah).
Looking forward to that

First let me state:

1) the law was a pointer to christ. Of which to attain salvation is not based on obedience to the mosaic law, for christ ended that a requirement for we to attain salvation.

2) that doesnt make the mosaic law sinful. No. It was the law of God, but it has fulfilled its purpose. Now the WAY CHRIST LIVED HIS LIFE WHILE ON EARTH FORMS A DIFFERENT PERTAIN OF A RIGHTEOUS STANDARD THAT FORM THE LAW OF CHRIST.

Now since Jesus lived by the law, will it not be right to imitate his obedience to the law, at least the law is not evil?

No cos the law stopped being a requirement after his death. Granted the principles in the law guides christians, however the law of Christ presents some clarifications and additions.

The law of christ is not based on a mountainlike rules of dos and donts, rather it EMPHASIZES ON PRINCIPLES which is based on love from the heart. Jer. 31:31-34.

Hence the mosaic law is not evil, IT IS NOT EVIL TO PRACTICE ANY PART OF THE MOSAIC LAW THAT DOES NOT CONFLICT WITH THE LAW OF CHRIST (the examples he set by his conduct).

- Jesus enaugurated the preaching of the goodnews and through God's spirit accepted a gentile.

- Jesus condemned killing our enemy. Even condemned killing sinners. Eg the prostitute. Jesus was trying to show that the law is built on love.

- he emphasized principles not law matt. 5-7.

- baptism is a requirement for salvation. This wasnt so according to the law.

- baptism by the holy spirit is essential for heavenly life.

AFTER HIS DEATH

after his death, the confirmation of this change in law began to manifest fully.

- it allowed people of different races to serve God based on faith, not based on observing the law, as the torah indicates. Law of faith entails u observe the law of christ.

- gentiles were now grafted in as those who will inherit salvation though not israelite by flesh and not alien residents with circumcision. This was against the law.

- Jesus had died and had become a high priest which runs contra to the establishment of the mosaic law. Heb. 7:12.

now that the priesthood has been changed, how does the new priesthood run?

Is it according to the law which was not followed in establishing the priesthood? If we are not sacrificing bulls for sin, what do we sacrifice? And how can our sins be forgiving? Thru sacrifice of bull yearly? No. But thru remorseful prayers. Good. But who established this new way of approach? The law or christ?

Note that if you err in one part of the law, you are condemned by it.

- you no longer need to sacrifice goat or bulls.

So the mosaic law is no longer a requirement for christians. But that something is not a requirement doesnt mean that you cannot do it. No. It only means that it will not contribute to your qualification ONLY if that thing you are doing doesnt conflict with the new law, law of christ. (Remember the principle of the law still guides us).

Eg. According to the law, anyone who raped a woman, should be killed.

We do not need christ to tell us that raping a woman is wrong. But should we kill him? The law of christ says NO. But we may learn from the law that he cant attain salvation IF he doesnt repent.

Eg. The law shows that circumcision is a requirement to have an approved relationship with God.

Even as i am a christian, I might chose to circumcise. After all the law was not evil and it doesnt conflict with any law of christ. But is circumcision a requirement for christians to have approved relationship with God? The law of Christ says NO.

The law of Christ is not based on rules but principles which is based on love.

If love was important in the mosaic law, love is the essence of christian law. Love to the point of dying for your friends. John 13:34, 35; 15:13. God's love came in much force thru the law of christ and we are encouraged to do same. The law of love should be evident in our lives as this should come from the heart. Jer. 31:33.

This love will help us to look at the principles behind a command instead of a code. Instead of hating fornication, we should also avoid inappropriate passion which leads to it. Instead of looking for where we are told not to smoke, we should focus on what defiles the flesh which God created. 2cor. 7:1.

The emphases on priciple both of the law which doesnt conflict with his own, and his examples is what is needed in the law of christ. It also requires that your trained conscience should come into play. It is not a code of laws like the torah.

Their are conducts covered in the advice of the apostles which are not covered in the torah, but this are not to be viewed as laws. They are principles.

the law of christ also indaicates that you do not fight, even wars are wrong. 2tim. 2:24. principle.

Ok bro, since you wrote so eloquently I will begin to respond bit by bit:

JMAN05: First let me state:

1) the law was a pointer to christ. Of which to attain salvation is not based on obedience to the mosaic law, for christ ended that a requirement for we to attain salvation.

I get this point and I was once of this opinion. However, your point suggests that before Christ died, the only hope one had of attaining salvation was by keeping the law perfectly. We know that no man ever has. And I know Moses, Elijah et al will be in the kingdom of heaven. It was Abrahams belief that was counted to him as righteousness, as the word says. His heart was after God, and this showed in his works, but it was not the works per se. Otherwise, he would be able to boast.

JMAN05:
The law of christ is not based on a mountainlike rules of dos and donts, rather it EMPHASIZES ON PRINCIPLES which is based on love from the heart. Jer. 31:31-34.

Jeremiah 31 says God will take the Torah, and write it in the hearts of men, the spirit will guide them to obey it. It does not say I will take my Torah, wipe it away, and put a different law into your hearts.

JMAN05: Jesus condemned killing our enemy. Even condemned killing sinners. Eg the prostitute. Jesus was trying to show that the law is built on love.

The punishment of the law demanded that one caught in adultery, with witnesses, be killed, both man and woman. In this case, Jesus was going to pay for her sin on the cross. Adultery itself remains a sin, the punishment, the demand of the law, was taken on by the blood of Christ. Secondly, there were no witnesses, nor did the bring the man she allegedly committed the act with. Jesus also said,
John 8:7 "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her"

The key words are highlighted.

JMAN05: he emphasized principles not law matt. 5-7.

In Matthew 5, he summarised the law. If you do these things, you fulfil the law. E.g. How can you hate your mother and say you love God. If you love the Lord with all your heart, you obey his commandments. If you do unto others as you would have them do unto you, you will satisfy the demands of the law with regards to how to treat others, do not kill etc.

JMAN05: baptism is a requirement for salvation. This wasnt so according to the law

Not true. Baptism is akin to the phase 'circumcision of the heart. We have seen this used in Deuteronomy, right up until Paul. They were never saved by works.

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:29

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." Deuteronomy 10:16

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." Deuteronomy 30:6

The problem is the pharisees were teaching a works based system, i.e. obey the traditions of the elders AND torah and you are saved. That is pharisaic judaism. That is what Jesus was against. Not the true form of the religion, given by the father.

I will look at more points later.

Shalom

JesusisLord85: Ok bro, since you wrote so eloquently I will begin to respond bit by bit:



I get this point and I was once of this opinion. However, your point suggests that before Christ died, the only hope one had of attaining salvation was by keeping the law perfectly. We know that no man ever has. And I know Moses, Elijah et al will be in the kingdom of heaven. It was Abrahams belief that was counted to him as righteousness, as the word says. His heart was after God, and this showed in his works, but it was not the works per se. Otherwise, he would be able to boast.



Jeremiah 31 says God will take the Torah, and write it in the hearts of men, the spirit will guide them to obey it. It does not say I will take my Torah, wipe it away, and put a different law into your hearts.



The punishment of the law demanded that one caught in adultery, with witnesses, be killed, both man and woman. In this case, Jesus was going to pay for her sin on the cross. Adultery itself remains a sin, the punishment, the demand of the law, was taken on by the blood of Christ. Secondly, there were no witnesses, nor did the bring the man she allegedly committed the act with. Jesus also said,
John 8:7 "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her"

The key words are highlighted.



In Matthew 5, he summarised the law. If you do these things, you fulfil the law. E.g. How can you hate your mother and say you love God. If you love the Lord with all your heart, you obey his commandments. If you do unto others as you would have them do unto you, you will satisfy the demands of the law with regards to how to treat others, do not kill etc.



Not true. Baptism is akin to the phase 'circumcision of the heart. We have seen this used in Deuteronomy, right up until Paul. They were never saved by works.

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:29

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked." Deuteronomy 10:16

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live." Deuteronomy 30:6

The problem is the pharisees were teaching a works based system, i.e. obey the traditions of the elders AND torah and you are saved. That is pharisaic judaism. That is what Jesus was against. Not the true form of the religion, given by the father.

I will look at more points later.

Shalom

Am still waiting for all other points to be responded to. some of them were not covered in ur responds. after you then, i will respond. thank you for responding sha.

circumcision thread as promised

https://www.nairaland.com/1397669/circumcision-explained

JesusisLord85: circumcision thread as promised

https://www.nairaland.com/1397669/circumcision-explained

still waiting.