JMAN05:



my brother, like i said before, address my responds one after the other. with that step, our discussions will be meaningful.

if u had done that way, u wouldnt have ran into the problem of responding out of point, just like you did above.

You are quoting the words of Jesus to support that Jesus was not against the law and my "note" above addresses that point that Jesus was not against the law. the law ended AFTER his death. didnt I say so?

my brother, "telos" primary mean "end". the other one is "goal to end" not JUST goal. (exrgetic dictionary of the NT). from the context of that romans, end is the logical word to pick. can you say "I am... the beginning and the 'goal to end (or goal) (telos)'"? rev. 21:6. the context shows that end is the logical word. Strongs 5056: "(to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit ie (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state...".

basically when something reaches its goal it ends. that is the sense telos convey. so the law points to Christ and ends after his death cos it has fulfilled its purpose. like i said above.

please please and please, attend to my points one after the other just like i did above as this makes for a logical discussion. if not one could omit points
made by the other person.

I have replies to all ur submission, but please follow that format in replying to my comments, so that we will apply reason when making any piece of statement and direct to the issue presented by the other person.

please do.

JMAN05:



my brother, like i said before, address my responds one after the other. with that step, our discussions will be meaningful.

if u had done that way, u wouldnt have ran into the problem of responding out of point, just like you did above.

You are quoting the words of Jesus to support that Jesus was not against the law and my "note" above addresses that point that Jesus was not against the law. the law ended AFTER his death. didnt I say so?

my brother, "telos" primary mean "end". the other one is "goal to end" not JUST goal. (exrgetic dictionary of the NT). from the context of that romans, end is the logical word to pick. can you say "I am... the beginning and the 'goal to end (or goal) (telos)'"? rev. 21:6. the context shows that end is the logical word. Strongs 5056: "(to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit ie (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state...".

basically when something reaches its goal it ends. that is the sense telos convey. so the law points to Christ and ends after his death cos it has fulfilled its purpose. like i said above.

please please and please, attend to my points one after the other just like i did above as this makes for a logical discussion. if not one could omit points
made by the other person.

I have replies to all ur submission, but please follow that format in replying to my comments, so that we will apply reason when making any piece of statement and direct to the issue presented by the other person.

please do.

MostHigh:

If the LAW ended after jesus so called death then why did paul and the apostles obey it till the end?

Why is the prophetic priesthooed of ezekiel 44 obeying the commandments and laws of the most high God?

The prophetic kingdom of heaven revealed in prophecy has the TORAH as its constitution and all of scripture attests to this.

You are no prophet else you would have known this

You mr man are the Lawless man.

My advice to the lawless children is to stop the play of words, this is the true sign of the greek or gentile man. just talk for talking sake.

For the jew there has to be closure.

Your play of words is leading you away from the true purpose

Which is to live by the example set before you by Yashua and the apostles

Instead of arguing endlessly about what the words in thier letters mean.

Thier words can never replace the torah dont be fooled

JesusisLord85:

Oh I see. So you think the word of God should come to you only? Are there not other people reading this.
I will write as the spirit elads. I know your thoughts, they are lawless. Why will I spend time putting out the fires you and your friends create, when I can just preach truth, and let whoever will hear it, listen.
"go through my points one by one"? Am I your father?

JMAN05:

and am responding as the spirit leads me too. It is ur statements to which you cant follow a logical discussion that is lawless.

I also preach to others too, but I also take time to follow logically to prove my point.

why should waist my own time with u.

Goshen360:

Good! If Christ is the END GOAL and\or THE END OBJECTIVES of the law, what does that mean? This is the best shot of scriptures you will ever have here. Doesn't it mean the law has an END OBJECTIVES and that end objective is CHRIST. Doesn't it mean, the law's end objectives is to end up in CHRIST - pointing to Christ? Doesn't it mean when one comes to CHRIST, the end objectives of the law is completed and is no longer needed? Doesn't it mean the law was to be a guardian UNTIL Christ should come? Doesn't it mean that as many as are in Christ, the law have been completed\ended its objectives? Doesn't it mean that when that END GOAL or OBJECTIVES are reached or fulfilled, such law is terminated, null and void? Now that the END OBJECTIVES or END GOAL of the law has been reached in CHRIST, what do you still need that law for? To retain you in Christ?

You're going from Lagos to Ibadan and your end objective is to get to Ibadan. You called a taxi and he drove you to Ibadan. Now your END OBJECTIVES is reached (to get to Ibadan); please tell us, do you still need the service of a taxi-man? You left Nigeria for the UK and now you living in UK, what law and\or constitution do you obey? UK or Nigeria? Christians lived UNDER a better covenant, NOT under the law because they now have the indwelling of the Spirit, replacement of the guardians of the law, Galatians 5:18; you're just simply not getting this simple truth. A GREAT CHANGE HAD HAPPENED SINCE THE TIME OF THE OUTPOURING OF THE SPIRIT - THE HOLY SPIRIT HAD REPLACED THE ROLE OF THE LAW GUIDING FOLKS UNDER THE LAW AND WHEN A BELIEVER IS LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, SUCH ARE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD AND ARE NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF MOSES NOR ARE THEY UNDER THE LAW.

Amplified Bible (AMP)
18 But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.

New Living Translation
But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But if you are led by The Spirit, you are not under The Written Law.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
If your spiritual nature is your guide, you are not subject to Moses' laws.

Galatians 5:18

YOU CAN'T BE LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT AND AT THE SAME TIME BE LED BY THE LAW. That's what Galatians 5:18 is saying. Read it again and understand. Led by the Holy Spirit = NOT under the law, not subject to the law. Flip the coin and see the other side: Being under the law or subject to the law = NOT led by the Spirit.

In other words, the law was our ·guardian [child-minder; tutor; an attendant slave who watched over a child in a wealthy Greco-Roman household] ·leading us to [or until] Christ so that we could be ·made right with God [declared righteous; justified] through faith. 25 Now ·the way of faith [L faith] has come, and we no longer live under a ·guardian [child-minder; tutor; v. 24]. Expanded Bible (EXB); Galatians 3:24-25

Amplified Bible (AMP)
24 So that the Law served [to us Jews] as our trainer [our guardian, our guide to Christ, to lead us] until Christ [came], that we might be justified (declared righteous, put in right standing with God) by and through faith. 25 But now that the faith has come, we are no longer under a trainer (the guardian of our childhood).



New Living Translation
For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.

Amplified Bible (AMP)
4 For Christ is the end of the Law [the limit at which it ceases to be, for the Law leads up to Him Who is the fulfillment of its types, and in Him the purpose which it was designed to accomplish is fulfilled. That is, the purpose of the Law is fulfilled in Him] as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him.

Romans 10:4

DrummaBoy:

End of discussion!

DrummaBoy:

End of discussion!

That is to say, the objective of this discussion has been fulfilled by the masters themselves!!

E ku ise Oluwa O; may your tribe not end on nairaland.com!!!

JesusisLord85:

...for the simple minded

JesusisLord85:

...for the simple minded

DrummaBoy:

JMAN05: MostHigh.

>> If the LAW ended after jesus so called death then why did
paul and the apostles obey it till the end?>>

when u say obey, I guess u mean obey the whole law, not part of it? I know where u will quote, but please quote them lets discuss it.

<<Why is the prophetic priesthooed of ezekiel 44 obeying the
commandments and laws of the most high God?
The prophetic kingdom of heaven revealed in prophecy has
the TORAH as its constitution and all of scripture attests to
this.>>

are u ready to discuss it?

<<You are no prophet else you would have known this
You mr man are the Lawless man.>>

how do you know that am not? what do you understand by the word prophet as used in the scriptures? I might as well say you are lawless too, now will that statement make sense without a proof?

<<My advice to the lawless children is to stop the play of
words, this is the true sign of the greek or gentile man. just
talk for talking sake.
For the jew there has to be closure.>>

You shoulf check and see whether you are not the lawless child.

<<Your play of words is leading you away from the true purpose
Which is to live by the example set before you by Yashua
and the apostles
Instead of arguing endlessly about what the words in thier
letters mean.>>

If someone come and tell you that the Torah never prophesied about Yashua, will you accept it as true so that you will focus on the example set before you?

what if the example you think is set by the apostles is proven wrong by another person, will you accept it as true, without wanting to prove ur point beyond reasonable doubt?

<<Thier words can never replace the torah dont be fooled>>

I never it will, so am not fooled. however, dont be fooled as to the purpose of the law.

MostHigh:

Pual is you God

Simply put :

Even a child reading these post will discern that quickly enough.

By the words of your mouth you are judged

Lawless child of the little horn

JesusisLord85:

Why do they like to argue about 'keeping the whole law'
Did not David commit adultery. Did not Abraham give his wife away to save his own skin.
Nobody was justified by keeping the law, no man can boast before God. Before Christ, they were saved by faith. After Christ, we are saved by faith. Only difference for the lawless is that they say they are now saved without any works.

1 John 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him"

Tgirl4real: Waiting for the concluding part...

BTW, can drummaboy n Jesusislord tell us what the torah is? I believe that this info will help us to be on the same page.

Torah (/ˈtɔːrə/; Hebrew: תּוֹרָה, "Instruction", "Teaching"wink is a central concept in the Jewish tradition. It has a range of meanings: it can most specifically mean the first five books of the Tanakh, it can mean this plus the rabbinic commentaries on it, it can mean the continued narrative from Genesis to the end of the Tanakh, it can even mean the totality of Jewish teaching and practice.[1] Common to all these meanings, Torah consists of the foundational narrative of the Jewish people: their call into being by God, their trials and tribulations, and their covenant with their God, which involves following a way of life embodied in a set of religious obligations and civil laws (halakha).

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Bidam: The proper english phrase you should use is End Goal not goal to end.

Romans 10:4 ...'For Christ is the "END GOAL" of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.'

Paul wasn't meaning that Christ brought a literal end to the law of God. He meant that Christ IS THE END OBJECTIVE of the law.

JesusisLord85:

Why do they like to argue about 'keeping the whole law'
Did not David commit adultery. Did not Abraham give his wife away to save his own skin.
Nobody was justified by keeping the law, no man can boast before God. Before Christ, they were saved by faith. After Christ, we are saved by faith. Only difference for the lawless is that they say they are now saved without any works.

1 John 2:4 "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him"

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

JMAN05:

Are u ready to have this discussion following the format i said above?

1 corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth

DrummaBoy:
How, in God's name, will anyone in 21st century be advocating a return to the Torah when even the Jews that it was first given to do not adhere striclty to it today?

MostHigh:

Pual is you God

DrummaBoy:

And you insist that Paul's letters are not scripture.

DrummaBoy:

I must warn you they only play the game by their rules and not by anyone's: it called pride and it is the product of reading too much Torah.



If you have anything to contribute to the discuss do so independently of these two because they will waist your time. So far, I see that you are trying to reason with them but they don't reason: why? Torah, again.

But I won't want to discourage you too much bc you may just as well find a way to them that many of us have not been able to. So far, I must commend you for your resilience.

You see why your reasoning is screqwed up? Your justification is that some sinless people today do not keep the law, therfore it must be ok?
Rabbinic jews rejected the Messaiah. And we know, they will accept a false messiah in the endtimes.

John 5: 43 "I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

The problem with your quote in Ephesians 2, is that it directly conflicts Matthew 5:17 and Romans 3:31

Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil".

Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

The word abolished is here KATARGEHO, Strong's Gk. #2673). and interestingly, the same greek word is used here, as is used in Ephesians 2:15.
So what is the obvious conclusion, taking into account other scripture, and Strong's? That the translation is poor.

JMAN05:

You are quoting the words of Jesus to support that Jesus was not against the law and my "note" above addresses that point that Jesus was not against the law. the law ended AFTER his death. didnt I say so?

my brother, "telos" primary mean "end". the other one is "goal to end" not JUST goal. (exrgetic dictionary of the NT). from the context of that romans, end is the logical word to pick. can you say "I am... the beginning and the 'goal to end (or goal) (telos)'"? rev. 21:6. the context shows that end is the logical word. Strongs 5056: "(to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit ie (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state...".

basically when something reaches its goal it ends. that is the sense telos convey. so the law points to Christ and ends after his death cos it has fulfilled its purpose. like i said above.

To get the full undrstanding, I sugegst you read this article:

http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/ 9706/970611_b.html

Shalom

DrummaBoy:

And you insist that Paul's letters are not scripture.

DrummaBoy: JesusisLord85:




I do not understand that aspect of your saying the Jews are sinless. Are you the one saying it or they claim it. I know the Jews rejected the Messiah and they were judged for it with the overthrow of Jerusalem. My point is that that judgement was not just for rejecting Jesus, it was for rejecting his message: the message of the cross that teaches that God has abolished the dividing wall btw Jews and Gentiles. And that dividing wall is the Torah itself!

MostHigh:

I insist nothing.

Pauls letters are merely commentries on his convictions.

What I find amazing is your constant fixation of the man even to the detriment of the master

Its only deluded people that will pitch Paul agaisnts the other apostles in an effort to discredit the fathers work

Acts 15 shows them if full agreement

And this is the main reason you all lack the spirit of prophecy, its because you lack conviction

You have been warned

DrummaBoy: JesusisLord85:


I see. Bidam had pasted a quote from that sight too earlier on. I had also suspected those were your teachers, along with the Torah, but now you have proven me right.!

JesusisLord85:

yes, I saw it too so I decided to have a look because it was sound doctrine. Kudos to the brother

JesusisLord85:

This is why I say that, unless you embrace shdemidemi's two gospel myth (which I have dispelled severally), there is no way you can even begin to suggest that 'christians' don't have to keep God's commandments.
Despite this, they walk hand in hand...to the same destruction, lest they repent

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

JesusisLord85:

yes, I saw it too so I decided to have a look because it was sound doctrine. Kudos to the brother