PTH:

You read your own posts again and answer the following questions:
- if we agree with you that indeed your unknown god transcends all religions then who is this god? where is he? how can we get to him? where does he live? is he aware we exist? what are his plans for us? in what way does he influence our lives? what does he say about life after death?

Hahhaha, You make me laugh. Dude, I am not trying to proselytize you, whether you believe or not is your own business. I have come to a knowledge of this God based on MY experiences. I have no desire to share these experiences with you however. I have told you what I believe - There is a God. What do you believe?


Just saw your last post - The God I believe in - if he/she has a name, I don't quite know it, for my purposes, I refer to this God as "GOD" (quite convinient I know, but it serves me)

I'm waiting to hear what you believe though

dude, its plain you dont have a point besides ur obviously overwhelming desire to disparage the christian concept of God.
No i did not expect you to proselytize me neither am i vaguely interested in doing same to you, my entire point was to expose your ignorance of the "god" you so loftily claim to know and believe he transcends all religions.

Hey PTH
No, you're wrong - I have no intention of disparaging the christian concept of God. Neither do I intend to disparage the islamic concept. I actually am much closer to the christian concept than any other. I however find the christian book and religion a bit too limiting for an omnipotent and merciful God. The islamic/muslim concept I really don't know about, so I can't speak very much about.


You still haven't told me where you stand - at the moment, your sole interest in our conversation - if I may call it that - has been to tear my theories/beliefs apart.

I ask again, o PTH, what are your own views? What is your own belief about God or the lack thereof as the case may be?

Banderas:

Hey PTH
No, you're wrong - I have no intention of disparaging the christian concept of God. Neither do I intend to disparage the islamic concept. I actually am much closer to the christian concept than any other. I however find the christian book and religion a bit too limiting for an omnipotent and merciful God. The islamic/muslim concept I really don't know about, so I can't speak very much about.

I find it strangely intriguing that a large percentage of those who qualify themselves as "freethinkers" or "atheists"almost always want to associate themselves with the christian concept of God. The problem is simple, the human conscience has been programmed to believe in a supreme being and no amount of denial can suppress it.
- everyone wants to associate himself with the christian concept of God WITHOUT having to go through the sacrifices that God demands from us as His children. Its like we all want to be a part of that God but don't want to make lifestyle changes. Which is why you think the biblical standards are limiting.
It is impossible to claim the christian God and pooh pooh his standards. There is no sitting on the fence.

I am yet to see any freethinker who wants to be a part of the islamic heaven. No one seems to bother much with the muslims but the very same people who tell you the christian God does not exist are prepared to denounce you anytime you tell them they wont be a part of the christian heaven (why they want to be a part of that heaven when they dont want to have anything to do with the "limiting" bible beats me).
And guess what weapon our dear freethinkers use each time you point out the hollowness of their position, thou shalt not judge - taken directly from the bible!

Banderas:

You still haven't told me where you stand - at the moment, your sole interest in our conversation - if I may call it that - has been to tear my theories/beliefs apart.

I believe in the christian God. I know He exists, i know He can be reached and talked to, I know His plans for me and i know at least one way that He speaks to me; through the bible.
That is my stand, funny enough you either don't have a stand of your own or u have chosen not to mention it. i'd be eager to hear your side.

Hey PTH,
Finally we are communicating. I believe in God. I do not call him the "christian God", because in my beliefs, he transcends and exceeds christianity, islam, judaism and any other religion. I am however very careful with the different "sacrifices" demanded from us - I believe there are the pillars of my belief - the 10 commandments. I also believe there are more advisory instructions, as different from commandments. I am also careful about statements like "lifestyle changes" - what lifestyle changes are we talking about?

I am of the opinion that religion has been used as a tool for control and oppression over the ages, and a lot of what is now filtering down to us is considerably different from the christianity that existed at the beginning of the ages (i.e. after the death of christ).

I also believe that a huge amount of scripture in the bible is more figurative and less literal, and so following the bible page to page is far from the way to go.

This is a short summary - I'll say more depending on how long we get to discuss for.

Banderas:

Hey PTH,
Finally we are communicating. I believe in God. I do not call him the "christian God", because in my beliefs, he transcends and exceeds christianity, islam, judaism and any other religion. I am however very careful with the different "sacrifices" demanded from us - I believe there are the pillars of my belief - the 10 commandments. I also believe there are more advisory instructions, as different from commandments. I am also careful about statements like "lifestyle changes" - what lifestyle changes are we talking about?

i'm glad we can communicate now. I have a few observations though. You just confirmed my hunches, the innate desire of the soul of man to believe in the existence of a supreme being but a seeming reluctance to accept His control over our lives. We want to live with the believe of a God, reap the benefits we expect to get from Him and yet dont want Him to have anything to do with our lives.
How do you believe the 10 commandments are the pillars of your life when these commandments are the very basis of the spiritual covenant that the Christian God (whom you would rather have nothing to do with) established with the Isrealites more than 4000 yrs ago?

These 10 commandments are a part of the bible you claim is "limiting", these commandments are at the very core of Christ's teachings, these commandments are the very foundation of the christian faith and yet you just want to live by them and dump the rest?
The 10 commandments are not universal laws of man, they are the laws of a God you claim does not exist. My dear, you cant live life in a bubble.

Banderas:

I am of the opinion that religion has been used as a tool for control and oppression over the ages, and a lot of what is now filtering down to us is considerably different from the christianity that existed at the beginning of the ages (i.e. after the death of christ).

"a lot of what is now filtering down to us" includes the 10 commandments you are clinging so desperately to. Why do you think those did not change and every other thing changed? I have been a christian all my life and NEVER have i had the feeling that it is merely a tool of control and oppression. Yes it controls me to do that which is right and which when we ultimately view them without the prism of human desires are the best decisions of life.
When people talk of control - they are invariably talking of having to lose the freedoms to sin!

Banderas:

I also believe that a huge amount of scripture in the bible is more figurative and less literal, and so following the bible page to page is far from the way to go.

but the 10 commandments were just right for you to take hold on? The bible is as literal as it is figurative. It uses several examples to teach us how we as christians ought to live our lives in our present world. Every instruction from eating habbits, to the controversial issue of homosexuality is discussed there, you just have to prayerfully fiind them and have the holy spirit guide you.
You cannot understand the bible without a being transformed by salvation. Outside that, you will simply see it as a tool of oppression.

PTH:

i'm glad we can communicate now. I have a few observations though. You just confirmed my hunches, the innate desire of the soul of man to believe in the existence of a supreme being but a seeming reluctance to accept His control over our lives. We want to live with the believe of a God, reap the benefits we expect to get from Him and yet don't want Him to have anything to do with our lives.
How do you believe the 10 commandments are the pillars of your life when these commandments are the very basis of the spiritual covenant that the Christian God (whom you would rather have nothing to do with) established with the Isrealites more than 4000 years ago?

These 10 commandments are a part of the bible you claim is "limiting", these commandments are at the very core of Christ's teachings, these commandments are the very foundation of the christian faith and yet you just want to live by them and dump the rest?
The 10 commandments are not universal laws of man, they are the laws of a God you claim does not exist. My dear, you can't live life in a bubble.

"a lot of what is now filtering down to us" includes the 10 commandments you are clinging so desperately to. Why do you think those did not change and every other thing changed? I have been a christian all my life and NEVER have i had the feeling that it is merely a tool of control and oppression. Yes it controls me to do that which is right and which when we ultimately view them without the prism of human desires are the best decisions of life.
When people talk of control - they are invariably talking of having to lose the freedoms to sin!

but the 10 commandments were just right for you to take hold on? The bible is as literal as it is figurative. It uses several examples to teach us how we as christians ought to live our lives in our present world. Every instruction from eating habbits, to the controversial issue of homosexuality is discussed there, you just have to prayerfully fiind them and have the holy spirit guide you.
You cannot understand the bible without a being transformed by salvation. Outside that, you will simply see it as a tool of oppression.

Okay - to answer your questions:

I believe the 10 commandments are are pillars. I have observed them, prayed about them, and I can see that they make me a better person, while not interfering with other people's rights and lives. However I refuse to agree that a man wearing long hair, or a woman wearing trousers is a sin. I fail to see how the bible has a say in that.

Man, you make me laugh - what have I dumped? How do you accuse me so "confidently"of dumping the rest? How, from what I have typed have you been able to make this ernomous conclusion? You impress me, really you do. And where did I claim God didn't exist? PTH, have you even been reading my posts at all?

Here is what I will tell you for a fact, take it anyway you wish. There is NO WAY that the bible, a couple of thousand pages can contain the entire will and commandments of God, it is simply impossible. God over and above the bible. Yes, the bible contains some instructions from God, that in no way means that if I do stufff that isn't in the bible, I'm breaking God's rule.

Since when do you speak for God, oh PTH? and how do you know from where my inspirations and beleifs come from? Oh, let me guess, the holy spirit has revealed to you that I am not from God, and only what is in the bible is from God.

Here's what I say - there are mysteries to God that human beings will find out after the last day, if this last day indeed is a "day" in the true sense of the word (which I totally doubt). Something else I'm not sure is a literal prophecy is the scripture.

Now regarding never feeling that the bible is a tool of manipulation - I guess having a Naija background makes that easy. I have a mixed background, and I can tell you for sure, that for the part of my family that was once enslaved, christianity (as well as islam) was used to justify slavery. That is simply one aspect which I feel is rubbish, there are other interpretations and messages I have issues with.


Here's what I say - YOU are the one who is trying to make a "pocket God", to limit God to your faith - and tell everyone else that there is no way but your way. I fear that a lot of christains have become exactly what pharisees were in the time of Jesus - self righteous bigots.

Banderas, trust me you're not the only one who has been at this crossroads. Even me who grew up with ultra-conservative christian parents once toyed with the idea of quiting religion totally. My dad was extremely strict, we never got to watch TV until we were 12 yrs old, even then we couldnt watch movies that our friends watched, we rarely got to attend birthday parties or go sightseeing with our friends. Home was like a prison and all i remember we ever did was pray, read the bible and go to church.

I thought christianity was a prison, i wondered why a God who claimed that He came to set us free could simply have come to put us in a cage. You couldnt discuss girls with my parents and not having sisters made issues even worse. The first time i had a girlfriend i didnt even know what to do or say!   I didnt like God, i didnt want to read His bible, i saw it as boring, tedious and only present as a scourge that parents use to cage their children. I saw so-called christian families fight at home and then smile outside claiming to all and sundry that the Lord was good when they'd just had a boxing contest the night before.

Even now that i live alone, i still fight with the concept of God and his principles. I want the freedom to go out with my friends to the club, i dont want to look like an idiot each time we go for dinner and my colleagues laugh me in the face for refusing to drink beer, i hate it when others can go to clubs and pick girls and i cant because i remember what the bible says. BUT when i began to look at things a little better i realised a major difference, God IS love, His intention was not to put me in a prison but to make me enjoy life even more by making the right life choices. I am not a saint dear Banderas and i dont claim to know it all. I cant tell u that my walk with God is perfect, No. But i will NEVER leave the God of the bible, for i have seen His hands, i have heard His voice, i know He wants the best for me and now i know that all He asks is that i be patient, trust Him and learn to let Him take control of my life.

He is real, He demands sacrifice from us but He understands that we are frail and that is why He has sent His son to die for us that through His spirit we may have the strength to take the right decisions according to His will.

Give it a shot Banderas.

And now, now you preach to me (give it a shot).

Here's how it is for me - I refuse to live by the law of the bible. I refuse totally to be controlled by the ability to stay away from sin. I drink beer because I see nothing in the bible that says I shouldn't, and because I have prayed about it.

Like you I am of the opinion that there is an acceptable code of conduct for a person who believes in God.

PTH, you're losing me completely, that is my concern - you have an opinion of me which simply isn't the truth. My issues are not with christianity, they are more with some messages coming out of the church, and the way some people twist things to suit themselves and also to control other people.

And if you think I haven't made any sacrifices, you have me completely wrong. I have made my own sacrifices, based on conversations and agreements I've had with God.

My message is not that christianity doesn't exist, or isn't relevant, my message is this - don't limit God to christianity. God is divine, not christianity. Christianity is merely a way of worshiping God, who are we to say there isn't any other?

Banderas:

Okay - to answer your questions:

I believe the 10 commandments are are pillars. I have observed them, prayed about them, and I can see that they make me a better person, while not interfering with other people's rights and lives.

You have finally confirmed my hunch - you want to believe in God and expect to go to heaven but dont want Him to interfere in your life. That my brother is impossible. Since you dont believe in the christian God whose commandments you hold so dear as pillars, who then do you claim to pray to? Is it possible to pray to another god over someone else's principles?
How do the 10 commandments make you better than someone who doesnt even know they exist but yet does not kill, respects his parents, does not steal and loves his neighbour?

Banderas:

However I refuse to agree that a man wearing long hair, or a woman wearing trousers is a sin. I fail to see how the bible has a say in that.

Again you are merely exposing your real reasons for not believing the God of the bible. You want the right to pick and choose what commandments to adhere to. Dear sir, that choice is not yours to exercise. With God, you either go 100% or you dont even bother about Him, it will be more girevous on the judgement day for those who KNEW and chose not to believe.
The interpretation of the scriptures is subject to the Holy spirit speaking to us. I personally see no issues with a woman who wears trousers, my parents are seriously against it but at the end of the day, the best we can do is pray and ask God to guide us to the right path.

Banderas:

Man, you make me laugh - what have I dumped? How do you accuse me so "confidently"of dumping the rest? How, from what I have typed have you been able to make this ernomous conclusion? You impress me, really you do. And where did I claim God didn't exist? PTH, have you even been reading my posts at all?

Banderas, lets not drag isues back and forth. You have your own concept of God and i have mine, what i know is that your concept of god is no where near the concept of the christian God even though you want to go to His heaven and cherry pick his laws that sound agreeable to ur spirit.
The 10 commandments are not the sole laws of the biblical God, infact after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ those laws became obsolete. now they are no more mere words written on a slate but words engraved in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. We no longer have to memorise the laws and make a checklist of how many of them we have disobeyed, for now that we are born again we have the mind of Christ.

Banderas:

Here is what I will tell you for a fact, take it anyway you wish. There is NO WAY that the bible, a couple of thousand pages can contain the entire will and commandments of God, it is simply impossible. God over and above the bible. Yes, the bible contains some instructions from God, that in no way means that if I do stufff that isn't in the bible, I'm breaking God's rule.

You are right, God cannot be contained in the bible, that was why He thought it essential to come down in human flesh and die on the cross. Now He is no longer that unseen force in the sky but the still small voice, the gentle shepherd and friend who knocks at the door of our heart teaching us those things which we ought and we ought not to do.

Banderas:

Since when do you speak for God, oh PTH? and how do you know from where my inspirations and beleifs come from? Oh, let me guess, the holy spirit has revealed to you that I am not from God, and only what is in the bible is from God.

I dont speak for God, but he is clear in His word that by their fruits we shall know those who truly are His. A true child of God will NEVER disparage the significance of the bible.

Banderas:

Here's what I say - there are mysteries to God that human beings will find out after the last day, if this last day indeed is a "day" in the true sense of the word (which I totally doubt). Something else I'm not sure is a literal prophecy is the scripture.

You are very correct, but the little we know as is contained in the bible, let us strive to do them.

Banderas:

Now regarding never feeling that the bible is a tool of manipulation - I guess having a Naija background makes that easy. I have a mixed background, and I can tell you for sure, that for the part of my family that was once enslaved, christianity (as well as islam) was used to justify slavery. That is simply one aspect which I feel is rubbish, there are other interpretations and messages I have issues with.

This is nonsense and is simply a victims mentality purposely designed to keep you away from the truth of the scriptures. I have family members who have NEVER even been outside the USA in their lives who are much more sound christians than me. The beauty of the bible knows no boundaries but is available to those who open their hearts to it without making countless excuses.
The whites used the bible to justify racism. Read your bible urself, there is NOTHING in there that justified slavery or racism.

Banderas:

Here's what I say - YOU are the one who is trying to make a "pocket God", to limit God to your faith - and tell everyone else that there is no way but your way. I fear that a lot of christains have become exactly what pharisees were in the time of Jesus - self righteous bigots.

Not really. YOU are desperate to see God as a limitless being, a magnanimous God who you expect should have nothing to do with how u live ur life, a God whom you expect should turn a blind eye to your sins and still let u into heaven.
I have heard this line of argument several times before, "freethinkers" (who are nothing but sinners seeking excuses to continue living in sin) tell us that a merciful God shouldnt put everyone in hell despite the fact that they are not willing to acknowledge that God.

Here is the bottomline, whether i put God in my pocket or not, He lives by principles that He expects you and me to adhere to. However He has also given us the power of choice to decide what we want to do. Belief in God is not compulsory, i'd even suggest you not waste your time with the 10 commandments because on the last day it will stand in testimony against you if you die outside of salvation.
The pharisees religiously held unto the 10 commandments during the time of Jesus yet He still called them hypocrites and whitened sepulchres. Spare urself the trouble.

Banderas:

And now, now you preach to me (give it a shot).

you are at liberty to reject it but you have forever lost the chance to plead ignorance on the judgement day.

Banderas:

Here's how it is for me - I refuse to live by the law of the bible. I refuse totally to be controlled by the ability to stay away from sin. I drink beer because I see nothing in the bible that says I shouldn't, and because I have prayed about it.

Yeah, i decoded this a while ago. You choose to cherry pick the laws that sound like you can easily keep. There are many muslims who can beat their chest at having kept the 10 commandments, what then is the difference between the two of u? Will u be going to the same heaven?
You want to drink beer but since in your conscience you know that the biblical God condemns it you choose to hide under the umbrella of "putting God in my pocket". No problem dear, continue drinking.

Banderas:

Like you I am of the opinion that there is an acceptable code of conduct for a person who believes in God.

The problem is you are not at liberty to help God choose those acceptable codes of conduct. He has put His codes in the bible you have chosen not to read. Good luck.

Banderas:

PTH, you're losing me completely, that is my concern - you have an opinion of me which simply isn't the truth. My issues are not with christianity, they are more with some messages coming out of the church, and the way some people twist things to suit themselves and also to control other people.

Those messages do one thing, they convict you of sin but your sinful nature is not prepared to give up the life of unrighteousness. I dont blame you, there are times i wish i could just walk up to the nearest girl and take her home for the night but i know that one day i will pay for it so i choose not to. The choice dear Banderas is yours to make. You wont have an alibi on the last day.

Banderas:

And if you think I haven't made any sacrifices, you have me completely wrong. I have made my own sacrifices, based on conversations and agreements I've had with God.

lol you dont even have a well defined concept of the God you claim to have an agreement with. Can you have an agreement with someone who is not listening to you? The bible says - Jesus is the way the truth and the life NO ONE comes to the father but by Him.
How can you have an agreement with God outside salvation?

Banderas:

My message is not that christianity doesn't exist, or isn't relevant, my message is this - don't limit God to christianity. God is divine, not christianity. Christianity is merely a way of worshiping God, who are we to say there isn't any other?

your message is this dear Banderas - i want to live my life of sin free from the condemnation of the bible and God should be magnanimous enough to turn the blind eye, love me all the same, not have anything to do with my life and allow me to enter heaven.

OMG, I just read through your posts, and you know what, go ahead, and live your life, and enjoy it. It's hopeless trying to reason with you, you're as brainwashed as a suicide bomber. But you're NOT God. You preach a gospel you have no understanding of. You're no different from a suicide bomber who beleives Allah has instructed him to "sacrifice" his life for some weird cause. You're also a lazy person who doesn't want to think for himself, but is looking for someone else to think for him (consider the parable of the talents, you've buried your talent)

And decode? You have decoded NOTHING about me, you make your impressions about me based on what you've gone through - not wise. You're like the pharisees who found fault with Jesus because he hung out with normal "unclean" people. And you speak about my conscience? Let me tell you now - the reason why you don't drink is because someone somewhere told you not to, not because the bible said you shouldn't (hello control)

And why, why do you think you understand my agreement with God? That is simply hilarious. It is YOU who doesn't have an understanding of God, you rely on what people tell you, you don't take time out to find out what God is saying to you and where he wants you to be. And you also judge others.


My message? You have no clue what my message is. Your message on the other hand is this - I want to earn my way into heaven by living a perfect life. Every now and then I will look around and condemn anyone who doesn't live like me. My righteousness and holiness are the key - anyone who isn't holy can't make it. I will enter heaven with my eyes closed. I may as well retreat into a monastery, I don't want to live in this world again.

You know what PTH - your wrong and totally annoying tendency of describing me in a completely wrong manner (I don't think you're as smart as you think you are), is really getting to me. You judgemental attitude (Even Jesus didn't judge, but the pharisees, who you remind me off did) is far from inviting to me. Also, I want to go to bed - i have to work tomorrow. I wish you luck in your walk, I have made my choice, I have prayed about it.

And your accusations I find really really disgusting and irritating. How dare you accuse me of cherrypicking? Are you God? Since when do you know it all?

I say again - people like you are exactly what Paul preached against, you make it uneccesarily hard for outsiders to enter into the kingdom of God. Since when did you hold the keys to heaven and earth? I find your tone and posts unbelievably self-righteous, I didn't realise people like you still existed.

Wait, victims mentality? You know NOTHING about what you are typing or what I have been through or my backround, why do you think you can judge?

Are you even reading my posts at all? Where in my posts do I say that god has no say in how I can live my life?

Okay, that's it. By your delibrate misinterpretation of my posts, you have brought me to the end of my patience. Live your life, I'll live mine, oh Pharisee (By your fruits, I know you)

@ Banderas, i'm not surprised at the sudden belligerence, the bible has indicated that light and darkness CANNOT co-existent. Darkness flees at the sight of light, that is exactly what you are doing.

Banderas:

OMG, I just read through your posts, and you know what, go ahead, and live your life, and enjoy it. It's hopeless trying to reason with you, you're as brainwashed as a suicide bomber. But you're NOT God. You preach a gospel you have no understanding of. You're no different from a suicide bomber who beleives Allah has instructed him to "sacrifice" his life for some weird cause. You're also a lazy person who doesn't want to think for himself, but is looking for someone else to think for him (consider the parable of the talents, you've buried your talent)

lol lol if i am brainwashed for Christ then so be it. I'm not complaining, i havent buried my talents dear i'm using them quite well. On the other hand it is you who has buried your talent and counted the blood of Christ as worthless. Please read the book of Hebrews - oh well you never read the bible. Best of luck.

Banderas:

And decode? You have decoded NOTHING about me, you make your impressions about me based on what you've gone through - not wise. You're like the pharisees who found fault with Jesus because he hung out with normal "unclean" people. And you speak about my conscience? Let me tell you now - the reason why you don't drink is because someone somewhere told you not to, not because the bible said you shouldn't (hello control)

you're as plain as a book even though you vehemently deny it. The You're trying to hide under the "o afterall Jesus hung out with unclean people" gambit does not hold water. Jesus Christ "hung out" with unclean people for the sole purpose of transforming them not to join them to eat, drink and sin.
lol i have been living on my own for the past 3 yrs, i work in an environment where i am exposed to cigarettes (i handle them almost daily) for the last 3 yrs, all except one of my work colleagues drink and yet i neither drink nor smoke. That doesnt count as doing it just to please dad and mum eh. Good excuse though. You wont have that alibi on the last day, enjoy wallowing in deciet.

Banderas:

And why, why do you think you understand my agreement with God? That is simply hilarious. It is YOU who doesn't have an understanding of God, you rely on what people tell you, you don't take time out to find out what God is saying to you and where he wants you to be. And you also judge others.

The bible is more than plain on this issue. If you claim to have an agreement with a different God then fine. But if you want to have an agreement/covenant with the God of the bible may it be known unto you that the bible is clear that THERE CAN BE NO TESTAMENT WITHOUT THE DEATH OF A TESTATOR (the book of hebrews). As long as you discontenance the blood of Jesus Christ you can not have a covenant with the biblical God. You can decieve yourself all u want.

Oh here we are with the "judging" card again. Very predictable.

Banderas:

My message? You have no clue what my message is. Your message on the other hand is this - I want to earn my way into heaven by living a perfect life. Every now and then I will look around and condemn anyone who doesn't live like me. My righteousness and holiness are the key - anyone who isn't holy can't make it. I will enter heaven with my eyes closed. I may as well retreat into a monastery, I don't want to live in this world again.

lol there are thousands of christians living wonderful God-centered lives who enjoy the good things of life today. I have a cousin who plays junior tennis all around the country and yet is a wonderful christian. Christianity as espoused by the bible does not condemn you to a life or purgatory but that is the excuse that you are pull out to continue wallowing in sin. Carry go abeg.

Banderas:

You know what PTH - your wrong and totally annoying tendency of describing me in a completely wrong manner (I don't think you're as smart as you think you are), is really getting to me. You judgemental attitude (Even Jesus didn't judge, but the pharisees, who you remind me off did) is far from inviting to me. Also, I want to go to bed - i have to work tomorrow. I wish you luck in your walk, I have made my choice, I have prayed about it.

even if i said things in a totally different manner it will still irritate you. What is irritating you is not the words i say but the fact tht your conscience is unconsciously pricking you and you hate it. You love your life as it is without the influence of the bible but you want to go to heaven. e no dey work like that o. You can ignore my words and read the bible for urself.
The Jesus Christ you claim did not judge called the pharisees serpents, hypocrites and whitened sepulchres for the very same sentiments that you exhibit here.
Keep praying to ur ceiling, as long as the bible remains the same God is not listening to you outside the saving power of His blood.

I dont need you to tell me how smart i am, i know what i am in christ Jesus. Sorry if it shows you up in a negative light. not my fault

Banderas:

And your accusations I find really really disgusting and irritating. How dare you accuse me of cherrypicking? Are you God? Since when do you know it all?

Accusations? lol It is the truth my dear. You cant hug the 10 commandments, decieve urself that you are actually living a Godly life and yet ignore the message of salvation. It is IMPOSSICANT. You can beat your head on the wall till tomorrow, you cant cherry pick the bible.

Banderas:

I say again - people like you are exactly what Paul preached against, you make it uneccesarily hard for outsiders to enter into the kingdom of God. Since when did you hold the keys to heaven and earth? I find your tone and posts unbelievably self-righteous, I didn't realise people like you still existed.

Not really. infact Paul's words are much worse than anything i can ever tell you here. Paul it was who claimed to have handed Alexander and his friend to the devil for blasphemy.
Salvation is not an easy jolly ride if not everyone on earth would be a christian. There are trials, temptations, tests, there are sacrifices, sometimes painful to bear, there is a cross to bear, the cross of being the laughing stock of ur friends because u wont do as they do, the road to heaven is not straight and wide like the gates to hell (that can accomodate everyone), it is narrow, winding, twisting and full of thorns. That is why very few want to enter into the kingdom of God. Because they cant bear to live a life outside of sin.

You talk about entering the kingdom of God and i ask again, which God? The one that transcends all religions? Did that God tell you he had a kingdom? Keep up your deciet?

Banderas:

Okay, that's it. By your delibrate misinterpretation of my posts, you have brought me to the end of my patience. Live your life, I'll live mine, oh Pharisee (By your fruits, I know you)

Thank you my brother, you taught me a lot that i can learn from even though you dont know it.

PTH, I'm not surprised at your inability to type your own statements, instead constantly trying to make a case out of dissecting mine. Intelligence and folly cannot co-exist. Intelligence creates, folly tries to destroy and criticise.

Brainwashed for Christ? Do you even read this bible you so strongly support? You will know the truth and the truth will set you free, not you will be brainwashed.

And here we go again, oh judge. I see God has made you a judge of people. That must be your ministry, judging people. I wonder how you manage to do it, seeing that Jesus didn't judge. But then again, your real masters did - the pharisees.

Agreement with God - now you know everything, and again you try to limit God. Wonderful. Hello again Pharisee.

Wallowing in sin? You don't know me, you can't judge my lifestyle from my posts, how come you accuse me of wallowing in sin? (Judge, pharisee)

Actually, I am quite comfortable with myself, thank you very much. I have no need to justify myself by accusing other people of cherry-picking and wallowing in sin. You are the one that has the need to do so, I wonder why.

Cherrypick the bible? I wonder what the bible says about judging others. Dear PTH, you still are unable to even see what I have been saying, instead you go on makig (false) accusations about the way I live my life.

Again - deceit. I'm just amazed at your ability to come to such conclusions from what I have said. Mate, follow the bible that you preach, and deal with the log in your eye, stop trying to point out the speck in mine. So what if you have been ridiculed for your beleifs, is that why you think it's okay for you to come online and ridicule mine? Is that what makes you a judge?

Unfortunately, I can't say I have learnt anything from you here. You have come across to me as a millitant christian, not millitant in prayer, but millitant in accusation. You seem, my dear friend to have forgotten the very message of Christ which was love and tolerance, you have gone instead to become a judge, and go around accusing people who don't fit your idea of christianity. Christianity is neither based on your expectations, nor based on Paul's expectations (that I may know him), it is based on the expectations of God. 

You know for a short while, I thought we could have a conversation, maybe discuss a few things and learn a bit from each other. I was civil to you, and I was friendly. You on the other hand have been nothing but judgmental and condemnational in your posts, these are traits that Jesus spoke against very strongly, it's amazing that you have picked them up. You wave the gospel (or your interpretation of it) like a sword of justice, again this is not your role, not yet anyway. You wear your sacrifices like a cloak of righteousness (Hey, I don't smoke and I don't drink) Well let me tell you, there are hundreds of non-christians that don't smoke or drink, so that is far from a relationship with God. And then you accuse me of being darkness? Ahh man! You are indeed an amazing fellow.

Perhaps there is one thing that I can indeed take from this discussion "brother" - I do NOT want to be like you.

Banderas:

Intelligence creates, folly tries to destroy and criticise.
- -
And here we go again, oh judge. I see God has made you a judge of people. That must be your ministry, judging people. I wonder how you manage to do it, seeing that Jesus didn't judge. But then again, your real masters did - the pharisees.

Hi Banderas,

It's amazing that while you made a case to not "destroy and criticize", you just did that same thing. You may not like it being said, but anyone who reads your lines simply comes to the inference that you're doing the same thing you disavow.

However, I'd have to disagree with your premise that "Jesus didn't judge". On the contrary, He did - and He said so. The one question we should be careful to observe is HOW He did so, and WHAT He meant by "judging". First, here's a reference to the point that He judged:

John 5:30 -- "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

Quite often, people make the mistake of only looking at certain verses without considering others. So, it is often the case that they often quote Matt. 7:1 ("Judge not", but they fail to understand what is actually meant in that text.

The Lord Jesus also asked that we as believers be responsible enough to "judge" issues in their true contexts:

John 7:24 -- "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Yes, Jesus asked us to "judge righteously" - not as though we should sit as 'judges' condemning people to HELL as if to take the place of God (Matt. 7:1 and James 5:9); but that we discern and distinguish matters that pertain to the things of God as truly as they are revealed in His WORD!

We all know that Jesus is the Judge when He returns (Acts 10:42 and Rom. 2:16); but it is actually inaccurate to assume that "Jesus didn't judge". He warned men, judged between issues and distinguished them as revealed by the Father; but when He returns, He will judge people themselves. I do hope that this will help many of us who have supposed otherwise.

Regards.

Pilgrim, thanks for your assistance there.

But in my opinion you have read me incorrectly. You accuse me of criticizing - can you please point out where I criticized the gentleman's lifestyle, or where I informed him that he was a child of darkness? I'm talking about a point where I took something he said, and made a conclusion, as different from reacting to his unfair categorization of me.


Regarding judging, Jesus can judge, afterall he is the christ. However, mr PTH is in know position to judge. If you want to join this discussion, please do, and join us based on what we are discussion, don't join by picking out one mistake I made, and quoting a lot of scripture to point it out, this solves nothing, and adds no value whatsoever to the discussion we are having.

Banderas,

Banderas:

Pilgrim, thanks for your assistance there.

Welcome anyday.

Banderas:

But in my opinion you have read me incorrectly.

Didn't mean to; but no, I did not - and that's why I quoted the relevant section that I was referring to.

Banderas:

You accuse me of criticizing - can you please point out where I criticized the gentleman's lifestyle, or where I informed him that he was a child of darkness? I'm talking about a point where I took something he said, and made a conclusion, as different from reacting to his unfair categorization of me.

It's not only when you have to use the phrase "a child of darkness" that one would know you did what I pointed out. However, please consider this again in yours:

Banderas:

And here we go again, oh judge. I see God has made you a judge of people. That must be your ministry, judging people. I wonder how you manage to do it, seeing that Jesus didn't judge. But then again, your real masters did - the pharisees.

. . .

Unfortunately, I can't say I have learnt anything from you here. You have come across to me as a millitant christian, not millitant in prayer, but millitant in accusation. You seem, my dear friend to have forgotten the very message of Christ which was love and tolerance, you have gone instead to become a judge, and go around accusing people who don't fit your idea of christianity.

You may not see those highlighted lines in yours as anything close to "criticizing", but it's there all the same.

Banderas:

Regarding judging, Jesus can judge, afterall he is the christ.

It is not a matter of "Jesus can judge" (as opposed to your earlier "Jesus didn't judge" - they are clearly not the same thing, and that is why I quoted precisely to show that He DID!

Banderas:

However, mr PTH is in know position to judge.

I didn't claim otherwise - at least you should see the point I made earlier:

pilgrim.1:

Yes, Jesus asked us to "judge righteously" - not as though we should sit as 'judges' condemning people to HELL as if to take the place of God (Matt. 7:1 and James 5:9); but that we discern and distinguish matters that pertain to the things of God as truly as they are revealed in His WORD!

Banderas:

If you want to join this discussion, please do, and join us based on what we are discussion, don't join by picking out one mistake I made, and quoting a lot of scripture to point it out, this solves nothing, and adds no value whatsoever to the discussion we are having.

I don't gamble the gimmicks of arguing issues with a closed Bible. If I pointed out something in yours and you feel the retrospection that it was "one mistake", then the mistake is YOURS - and your mistakes don't solve anything either. This does not mean at all that I claim infallibility - on the contrary, I've made quite a few bloopers, and have welcomed the corrections and enquiries thereto from others.

I would like to join the discussion (and thanks for the invitation); but if people are making assertions so strongly antithetical to what the Bible teaches about Christ, they're not helping the discussion - and we can't just simply get by on such assertions as if they solved anything in the first place.

This is not about picking out "one mistake" in yours, so I don't think you should take it personal. Apologies if you do all the same. However, if you're inviting a discussion and at the same time refusing to reconsider your own assertions in light of what Christ actually said and did in the WORD, it would only amount to rejecting the same invitation that you supposedly have offered.

Cheers.

pilgrim.1:

Banderas,

Welcome anyday.

Didn't mean to; but no, I did not - and that's why I quoted the relevant section that I was referring to.

It's not only when you have to use the phrase "a child of darkness" that one would know you did what I pointed out. However, please consider this again in yours:

You may not see those highlighted lines in yours as anything close to "criticizing", but it's there all the same.

It is not a matter of "Jesus can judge" (as opposed to your earlier "Jesus didn't judge" - they are clearly not the same thing, and that is why I quoted precisely to show that He DID!

I didn't claim otherwise - at least you should see the point I made earlier:

I don't gamble the gimmicks of arguing issues with a closed Bible. If I pointed out something in yours and you feel the retrospection that it was "one mistake", then the mistake is YOURS - and your mistakes don't solve anything either. This does not mean at all that I claim infallibility - on the contrary, I've made quite a few bloopers, and have welcomed the corrections and enquiries thereto from others.

I would like to join the discussion (and thanks for the invitation); but if people are making assertions so strongly antithetical to what the Bible teaches about Christ, they're not helping the discussion - and we can't just simply get by on such assertions as if they solved anything in the first place.

This is not about picking out "one mistake" in yours, so I don't think you should take it personal. Apologies if you do all the same. However, if you're inviting a discussion and at the same time refusing to reconsider your own assertions in light of what Christ actually said and did in the WORD, it would only amount to rejecting the same invitation that you supposedly have offered.

Cheers.

here's the thing. I have a slight issue about the way you actually joined this - mainly because I have the feeling you're in this to support PTH, and not to discuss logically. PTH took a small thing I said, and blew it up into a total lifestyle, how he came to the conclusion I have no idea, and for the rest of our discussion, I kept trying to tell him he had made a wrong conclusion. He doesn't seem to have understood this.

Now analysing what you have said - My discussion I'm afraid is NOT going to be restricted to the bible - if that's what you're expecting it's not going to happen. This by no means implies that I don't believe in the bible - I totally respect and obey the instructions in the bible as much as I can. I also meditate on what I read and try to get the real implication of what the bible is saying, as different from picking up things word for word and applying them to my life. This according to PTH is tantamount to me cherrypicking within the bible, and choosing what I obey. I wonder whether he also believes the world was made in 7 literal days, and discounts the theory of evolution. For me, I do not discount science or other religions, that is not for me to do (I suspect PTH on the other hand is empowered to do just this). I believe science is a tool in the hands of an almighty God.

I am not denying that I made a mistake, I however am insisting that this mistake I made is not exactly the strong point of my argument, and in concentrating on my mistake, you are steering the discussion away from what we were saying earlier. This makes your entry into the discussion a bit of a distraction.

Banderas:

here's the thing. I have a slight issue about the way you actually joined this - mainly because I have the feeling you're in this to support PTH, and not to discuss logically.

I knew this was coming, lol. . but there again, you're wrong, Banderas.

Banderas:

PTH took a small thing I said, and blew it up into a total lifestyle, how he came to the conclusion I have no idea, and for the rest of our discussion, I kept trying to tell him he had made a wrong conclusion. He doesn't seem to have understood this.

Okay - your issues with him. I've none with either of you. If someone else had asserted that "Jesus didn't judge", I would have tried to offer something to that point as well.

Banderas:

Now analysing what you have said - My discussion I'm afraid is NOT going to be restricted to the bible - if that's what you're expecting it's not going to happen.

I knew that already, from what you'd hinted earlier about the way you were offering the invitation to join the discussion. And that's why I offered clearly that my joining the discussion WILL definitely have to be with my Bible open in front of me. If that is a condition you CANNOT welcome, you have withdrawn your invitation even before you let me consider it.

Banderas:

This by no means implies that I don't believe in the bible - I totally respect and obey the instructions in the bible as much as I can. I also meditate on what I read and try to get the real implication of what the bible is saying, as different from picking up things word for word and applying them to my life.

I have no worries about individual styles of approaching Biblical issues.

Banderas:

This according to PTH is tantamount to me cherrypicking within the bible, and choosing what I obey. I wonder whether he also believes the world was made in 7 literal days, and discounts the theory of evolution. For me, I do not discount science or other religions, that is not for me to do (I suspect PTH on the other hand is empowered to do just this). I believe science is a tool in the hands of an almighty God.

Interpretations of certain texts differ between people - and I don't pretend this does not exist. Nor am I that 'rigid' to disregard science on the basis of 'religious persuasions'; nor disregard 'religious convictons' on the basis of 'science'.

Banderas:

I am not denying that I made a mistake, I however am insisting that this mistake I made is not exactly the strong point of my argument, and in concentrating on my mistake, you are steering the discussion away from what we were saying earlier. This makes your entry into the discussion a bit of a distraction.

I didn't mean to cause any distractions; but I don't think your attitude to your "mistake" is helping matters either. I would simply have passed on quietly, but the mindset reflected in the assertion that contradicts what Jesus did and said is what I find rather a bit of a concern.


Now about PTH and supporting him, I wonder why you'd feel that way. If he had made that same "mistake", I certainly would have pointed it out to him (would he then come back and assume I was here to support YOU, Banderas?) Incidentally, this same thing had come up previously, and again I pointed it out to the poster back then; and in instances where I actually had made "mistakes" (which I culd not excuse away), I welcomed it thankfully.

If my pointing out something from Scripture to show that your assertion was wrong about what Jesus did or said, and therefore that exercise is such a big issue and a distraction, I'd be thankful if you simply IGNORE me and enjoy the rest of the day. Honestly. 

I apologise again if you find me an unnecessary pest in pointing out what I did from Scripture; or that the honest "mistake" on your part should stand as stated without the need for my "distractions". Anyhow it cames across to you, don't take it personal - let's enjoy the day and ignore this pilgrim.1 and her wahala!

PTH and pilgrim.1, God bless u real good.

PTH and pilgrim.1, God bless u real good

@ PTH,
I saw ur blog. I owe u an award.

All the peophets in the bible were great because the bible says that, ", greater is the one that is with in me,than the one that is in the world" 1 Jhn 4:4. Prophets like Moses, Joshua, Isaiah i believe that they are categorised as great because of the content which we find in word of God. I mean by the great works which God used them. Only one page is available for Obadiah, not necessarily meaning that he did little.

With my little contribution, i think that i am among the first few who stuk to the topic "Prophet The Great Prophet of the bible."

Be blessed mightly in Jesus name.

Interesting argument, discussion and enlightening here. the two of you have your points no doubt but we seem to have drifted from the crux of the matter. Please can anyone post the passage that refers to "Prophet Mohammed" in the Bible? In whatever manner, whether implied or explicitly. Thanks.

I wonder what happens to the topic; Muhammad in the Bible? All I see is the convenient shift to other personage, Jesus (as). But we read from a quote above that Jesus was a prophet like others before him and specifically the only one after him, Muhammad (as).

Jesus claimed that he judges and does not by his own power, but by instructions from the one God. Same is Muhammad. Sometimes I read a person claiming that the prophet of Allah was a prophet, but a fake one. I asked myself then if this person was ever playing witha full deck of cards. The reason is that you can not claim that you take somebody as a prophet, but at the same time as a fake prophet, since the word fake sincerely means "not!"

A maker such a statement has already gone against the first part of saying the prophet was a prophet, by the use of the term fake afterwards. Within the same argument, the presentation of opposing arguments for the same issue are presented. We then see if there is honesty or true knowledge in that kind of argument.

It is as if I say that i believe that a person is a woman and then just turn around and say that she is a fake woman! Would it not have been easy to say from the get go that I do not believe this person is real, based on my knowledge of what a woman is? But interestingly, what is the physiologigal acutremens of a woman from a man may be unnoticed in a young girl who has not developed them yet. or even a tom boy, or an active woman, who hides her charms.

For you to determine what makes a woman a woman, you have to completely know what women dont have, but common and essential to men. In other words, how can you define Prophet muhammad (as) as fake, when he has met all signs of prophethood? I guess that since he says that God is not the father of any man, and no prophet claims being a son of God, and that Jesus was not god, did not die and was not crucified, i guess these are the means of the enemies arguments.

But we see that Jesus himself agrees with prophet muhammad, long before in the bible, proclaiming that he himself, jesus has the same God, Lord as his listeners, when he declared in Mark 12 vesr 29.

Somebody please reply!Is there a verse in the bible where it said that a comforter would come?If so, plesase quote it.

Sorry, the comforter is the Holy Ghost and not Mohammed. Mohammed was never a comforter but he killed those who did not want to be muslims. Sorry for the muslims; it's this guy who's confusing Mohammed with comforters.

and mind you I never called him the great prophet. You just decided to make it so. Good luck. Don't just turn this site to Jihad.

All I? asked is a simple question.If you are kind enough to reply me, I'd be truly grateful.

As we all know, the bible was not originally written in English.It was translated into English.The word Ahmad, in English, means comfort; and Muhammad means comforter.Could it be that the translators included the name in their translations?
Ask yourself this question. . .And with this, I rest my case.

@Tearface


Salam, these are the verses

John chapter 14 verse 16:

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."


Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."


Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".


Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realise that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus, in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus was being baptised, etc.



@Asamuel


Please maybe you would help your folks in answering this smple question.

Jesus said that it is expedient for him to go so that the comforter would come. the verse shows that the spirit would be a new creature.

He also said 'another comfoer' meaning that the comforter to come would be like him.


Now, we learnt that the holy spirit was and still in existence since creation, so my dear Asamuel, how come the comforter would be holy spirit since the comforter to come would be a new creature and we learnt that the holy spirit has been in existence since creation?

Thanks

@babs787
That was wonderful!I just hope people will open their eyes and their hearts and seek the truth. . .And once again,

tearface:

As we all know, the bible was not originally written in English.It was translated into English.The word Ahmad, in English, means comfort; and Muhammad means comforter.Could it be that the translators included the name in their translations?
Ask yourself this questionAnd with this, I rest my case.