and continues


In Sura 19.71 – 72 of the Quran, Allah says all muslims will go to Hell
(Any muslim who reads this, ask your own ustaz what sura 19.71-72 means). That means, if anyone follows this Islamic path, will surely go to Hell (unless you explode your body with a bomb to bits and pieces, as a martyr). This sounds so barbaric and gruesome a thought to me.[color=#990000][/color] (Muslims always criticize Christians, Taoists, Hindus and Bhuddists of praying to idols. But in Bhukari’s Hadith, it is stated that Prophet Muhammud helped the various tribes, replace about 30 idols inside the Kabah in Mecca, after it was expanded and re-constructed. Some of the idols have cracked and disintegrated over the years by the intense heat. They have the cheek to criticize other religions when muslims themselves pray and bow to idols).

now read the whole of it.

http://www.islamreview.com/testimonials/allahspath.shtml

Babyosisi, you ve got to agree with me that you dont know Islam and the access to quotes and verses with malicious interpretation does not make you an authority in islam.

Accepted there is rancour in the arab world and there are people who misapplied the lessons of Quran, but we are talking about over 6 billion muslims the world over, morrocco, tibet, canada, nigeria, guinea etc. You feel comfortable capturing the negative images in the middle east and your haphazard understanding of the islamic texts to heap all evil deeds on islam. Cant you see where your sentiment is taking you to? Are you trying to teach me my own religion? or do you think am a sadist who enjoy watching evil atrocities carried out in a false pretence? If you want to talk about Islam try to know the much you can get about it if at all you want to be fair because that is what i assume you are trying to be. But if you decide to be a blind critic like david then we are wasting time discussing here.

@belloti,

belloti:

Accepted there is rancour in the arab world and there are people who misapplied the lessons of Quran, but we are talking about over 6 billion muslims the world over, morrocco, tibet, canada, nigeria, guinea etc.

What is the population of the world today? And how do you reconcile your ambitious quote of "over 6 billion muslims" to the reality on ground? This is one thing I have often wondered about from you guys - why is it so difficult for you chaps to be realistic for once?

if there are "over 6 billion muslims" in a world of just about 6 billion inhabitants then i must be a muslim!

I was also flabberghasted by the 6 billion figure.I had heard 1.6 billion.
Anyway bellotti,I just quoted from a testimony of one who was a sharia enforcer who began to ask questions of Islam the same way many reading this(maybe not you) will begin asking questions.

I have never claimed to be an Islamic expert,I'm not even an expert on Christian theology either.
I am just a regular "housewife"who sought to know why Muslims are usually intolerant of others,would kill and maim us and themselves(Sunni and Shittes) and would seek to kill converts out of Islam.

I was born and brought up in Nigeria,even though I've had family members killed and displaced from Kaduna,Jos and Kano,like George Bush Jr I had always thought these extremists as I called them were hijacking a peaceful religion.
You can then imagine my shock at discovering that the terrorist ideology,innate hatred of Jews and Christian and the oppression of women is all Islamic,taken out of the very teachings of Muhammad and  commandments of his Allah.
I also sought to know why there are no muslims on rooftops proclaiming that Islam does not preach violence but I quickly realised they cannot because that would be false.
I know you are not a violent man belloti ,you have proven so in conversations but that does not take away from the fact that your religion would kill me or any Muslims that spoke out in condemnation of its ill practices.

Morocco,Tibet,Canada and Nigeria as you mentioned still suffer from the injustice of Islam and its sharia.I do not and have not made anythings up to state my claims.

davidylan:

if there are "over 6 billion muslims" in a world of just about 6 billion inhabitants then i must be a muslim!

and didn't even know it!

So am a muslim too babyosisi?
With all my vehement inputs here, my neck is going to be hanged soon.

@mrpataki,

I've always suspected you were a mushrikun of classical Islamic specie!

E don tay wey your people dey hunt for your head O, especially as you have joined the Christian camp! As for me, I'm one less number of the over 6 billion muslims!

lol

Belloti has proved that, like Nigerians, the world does not know how to count themselves!

@All; kindly read this excerpt of an interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali in Metro newspaper of London city. Very interesting; and kindly pay attention to the highlighted portions. It is very relevant to your discussions and gives further credible insight into Islam.
==============================================================================

Brief Profile: Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a former Dutch politician of Somalian descent. She wrote the film "Submission: Part 1, that led a muslim extremist to shoot it's producer, Theo van Gogh. Ali was born in Somalia and claimed refugee status in Holland in the early 1990s.

Q.: You were brought up a devout muslim. What made you turn against the religion?.

ALI: I knew no better than to follow the path my parent had laid out for me. I didn'y question it seriously until after 9/11. Bin Laden defined the world into Muslims and non-Muslims, and these (i.e. non-muslms) had to either be converted or killed. I asked myself where I stood after I saw pictures of people jumping out of the WTC. As a muslim I had to ask if I agreed with that. I was saddened to see Bin Laden's citation were from the Koran and were consistent with the Islam I grew up with. It is just that we were passive until then. Now we had to take sides. I had completed a political science degree and could no longer use ignorance as an excuse. I had to take my own path.

Q.: Do you think multiculturalism has failed?

ALI: Yes, we can put it in the history books and be glad we've realised that now rather than in years ahead. We need to understand radical Islam's ideology, it's agent, the strategies it uses amd the group it targets. European and American leaders desperately want to disconnect the ideology from the religion of Islam, which is a mistake. Islam is a set of beliefs on which the ideology of Bin Laden is based. We need to appeal to Muslims and show them their faith has traits that aren't reconcillable with human progress and liberal society.(!!!!! Awesome politically-incorrect statement, NB emphasis is mine) In the United States, agents of radical Islam are targeting prison population. In Europe, it's universities; the kind of people who once flirted with communism. The biggest mistake we've made is regarding Islam as an ethnic thing. It is not. It is a set of beliefs that can be scrutinised. Instead of exposing the fallacires of those beliefs, we've told ourselves that every critisicism of Islam is some sort of racism - but Islam is not a race.!

Q.: Do you see any positive side to Islam?

ALI: That's like asking if I see positive sides to Nazism, communism, Catholicism. Of course Islam preaches generosity and kindness and taking care of elderly and so on - but these values are not limited to Islam. If you weigh what is provided in terms of kindness and humanity against the evil that can come from a society built on Islam, you will see that liberals must stand to this (i.e. Islam) like they've stood up to other ideologies.


For the rest of this interview, including why Ali thinks western liberals are complacent, please go to this link; you can even add your comments:
http://www.metro.co.uk/fame/interviews/article.html?in_article_id=36021&in_page_id=11

davidylan:

Belloti has proved that, like Nigerians, the world does not know how to count themselves!

We just don't have the correct abacus in place, as so many of the beeds on them have been sold by politicians jostling for the defunct 3rd term.

Lol!

What's poppin' yo??!

Batu, i expected you to conclude your little story with "Hirse Ali was later discovered to be criminal and her status was withdrawn and humiliated in Holland". Anyway, you are welcome to the forum, hoping you will learn as you get over your JJC status.

Baby, if what you said is correct about your early childhood and the fact that you feel i am not violent, then you should be able to deduce to the point that its not about the religion but the interpretation. Am sure you can accurately give a small figure to the percentage of violent muslims in kano. Or let me put it this way, Can you please with all sincerety say that majority of muslims are Violent, Rapists or Killers? Your answer to this may draw the curtain to this line of arguement.

As for the accuracy of my figure, i will agree with you guys i wasnt too sure about it and i am honest enough to accept that fact.

belloti:

Batu, i expected you to conclude your little story with "Hirse Ali was later discovered to be criminal and her status was withdrawn and humiliated in Holland". Anyway, you are welcome to the forum, hoping you will learn as you get over your JJC status.

@Dear Alhaji Belloti,
You have an inglorious way of displaying your arrogance and ignorance by talking to people in a condescending manner. I have also read your imputs on the politics forum where you've rightly declared your unwavering support for another Islamic extremist by the name Buhari, and it is the same approach. While it is true I have fewer posts than you, it is quite clear that your posts are just numerous in quantity, but deficient in substance and quality. In addition you are always quick to scream "e gba mi o, personal attack o" whenever you opinion is thoroughly scrutinised.

So where did you learn that Ms Ayaan Ali was convicted of any criminal offence and humiliated in Holland? Is this an islamic thing of lying against a perceived "Mushrikun" or you are just sexing up your story to make her look bad. While it is true she openly confessed to lying when she was making her application for citizenship, you did not learn that she was pardoned. You know she made the application and lied as a MUSLIM (following prophet Muhammed's "good leadership" example permitting muslims to lie or break agreement in order to gain something from the enemy) after fleeing the early Somali conflict. But when she became a Christian, she decided to do the right thing by coming forward herself.
Belloti, [b]Ms Ayaan Ali is a shinning example to the rest of you educated muslims; she decided to use her natural and academic wisdom to thorougly scrutinise her former faith of Islam, and she saw the light and left. The rest of you will benefit by doing the same thing, unless you refuse because of dogmatic ideology or just plainly incapable of an independent and intelligent reasoning.[/b]Sallam a leikum!

Belotti,I have never stated anywhere on my posts that I hate Muslims,because I don't.I have Muslim friends,I had a close friend here in the US who wears a hijab,we would go shopping,eating,she came to my house,I went to hers,we would have regular girl talks from weight loss to romance and I got some good tips from her.
She would take off her hijab when we went to her house and I loved her native turkish cuisine halal and all.
She was just a regular woman like me,she is married with kids,drove a car and did not ask for permission to go to the movies,out shopping or just out in general.
We were very respectful of each other and she also knew that I had some misgivings about Islam,She has since moved to England and I miss her.
Let me also tell you that we suspect strongly that the reason the husband could not get a permanent position at his job was partly because he was Muslim and his bosses at work who were also my husbands bosses at the time were not Christians by any stretch.
I too have been denied employment because of my race and possibly gender.

I went into this detail just to tell you that I will never stereotype individuals.
The only issue I have is with the teachings of Islam ranging from killing those who choose to leave it,the second class treatment of Christians and others in Muslim countries,the fact that Christians are forced to abide by these archaic laws in these places for instance men and women riding in separate buses even in our own country.
So if today I went to Katsina and my hubby and I were going to Church by public transport,we couldn't go in the same bus,if you were me you wouldn't like that either.
As a Christian who believes in Grace and repentance a religion that stones an adulterer is incomprehensible,even shango and amadioha were not that merciless,where is mercy in Islam,is it impossible for an adulterer or thief to repent?

Then to make things even worse,the same sharia could kill a raped woman for not proving rape since it's almost impossible to have 4 eyewitnesses for rape and the same sharia will not permit DNA and other forensic evidence needed to exonerate her. The most infuriating of all to me as a woman is when a Muslim Nairaland user told us that 9 year olds girls in Mohammeds time had reached puberty.  
As a physician,I know that's not true,in olden days girls actually reached age of menarche(menstruation) later than today such that a 15  old then is comparable to an 11 or 12 year today.

The bible talks about marriage when a girl has reached the flower of her age which is menarche but no bible believing Christian  today would seek to marry a 12 year old,we know they are still kids and immature and the laws of all civilised nations which are not necessarily biblically based have the same views.

@ bari_kade, davidylan, babyosisi, gbade, belloti
You guys are just too much!

Senior erudite, mrpataki. . . you know you've been quite as much a blessing to me as well.

Sincerely I dont believe that one bari_kade. Till tomorrow, I am still thrown off by the way you handled the Reverend, and I am highly honored to have exchanged pleasantries with such a great knowledgeable fellow as you.

@ batu,
You are great too!

awwgh shucks, mrpataki, you making me blush!

Yeah, i just gotta thank God for peeps like bari_kade. Dude served the Revving Rev real hot. Rev had to go buy them pills, saw Kinky was exposed, closed up Kinky and started selling puff-puff and akara on the streets of UK.

damn, i miss that lunatic!

Just more of the many "bounties" of jannat as perpetrated by his slaves!

'Honour killers' expect to walk free
By M Ilyas Khan
BBC News, Bahawalnagar district, eastern Pakistan

Mohammad Aslam (left) and Maqbool Ahmad
They don't look like murderers - but the two frail-looking, lower-caste brothers in the village of Khatan in eastern Pakistan are self-confessed killers.

Mohammad Aslam and Maqbool Ahmad admit killing their sister Elahisen and a neighbour, Ghulam Nabi Shah, when they found them together in Elahisen's room on the night of 27 January.

They smashed their skulls with a brick and then strangled them with a rope. Then they gave themselves up to the police saying they had redeemed their family honour.

The event has a familiar ring to it.

According to official figures, more than 2,700 women and about 1,300 men have been killed in honour-related offences in Pakistan since 2001.

Human rights organisations put the number much higher, saying that most honour crimes are never reported to the police.

'Menace'

Sexual indiscretion on the part of men is seldom treated as dishonourable in Pakistani families, but women are expected to be chaste.

As such, the killing of women is hardly ever reported because the perpetrators are usually close male relatives.

Men, on the other hand, are killed by the family of the "dishonoured" woman and their families are more likely to seek justice from the courts.

And this is the dilemma that Mohammad Aslam and Maqbool Ahmad face.

Ghulam Nabi Shah, the man that they killed, belongs to a family of Syeds, said to be descendents of Prophet Mohammad and treated with reverence by rural folk.

Mr Shah's paternal cousin and step father, Syed Akhtar Hussain Shah, has lodged a complaint with the police claiming that he personally saw four people, including the two brothers, murder the victims.

The brothers themselves belong to the Maachhi caste, traditional menial labourers.

Despite this social difference, the people in Khatan, 30km north-east of the town of Bahawalnagar, appear to side with the Maachhis for what the local councillor, Ahmad Riaz Sukhera, calls "obvious reasons".

"Mr Shah murdered a village bully more than 10 years ago and became a hero. Then he started jumping into people's houses to sleep with their women. Everyone felt threatened. The Maachhis have rid them of the menace," he says.

But the Maachhi brothers took a long time to "redeem their honour".


"People had been taunting us about Elahisen's affair for a year. We knew that Ghulam Nabi Shah visited her at nights. But he was six feet tall and always carried a gun. We were scared of him," says Mohammad Aslam.

Those who taunted the Maachhi brothers are now all praise for them.

"They have restored their family honour - the deceased deserved to die," says Ghulam Abbas Bhatti, a resident of Khatan village.

The brothers themselves are oozing confidence and dignity even in fetters and handcuffs. "We have done no wrong and the law will not treat us unkindly," says Mohammad Aslam.

Legal experts believe the brothers may be right.

"They have confessed to the murders before the police, but they are not so dumb as to repeat that confession before the judge," says the Bahawalnagar district police chief, Zafar Abbas Bukhari.

Loopholes

"Honour" killers in Pakistan have several cushions within and outside the law, say experts.


Ghulam Nabi Shah left an only son (left) from a divorce 10 years ago

Popular opinion in Pakistan has usually remained sympathetic to the perpetrators of such crimes.

This is also reflected in the attitude of the police and judges who are often biased in the offender's favour.

In addition, successive governments have created legal loopholes by mixing Islamic and British colonial laws.

Even the original British law of 1860 contained a clause that prescribed leniency in cases of "sudden and grave provocation".

In 1990, the government introduced the Islamic law of retribution and blood money that allowed the aggrieved party to pardon an offender either "for the sake of God" or in return for an agreed sum of money.

Many believe that this law privatised crime and undermined the principle that crime was an offence against the state.

It also annulled the provocation clause, but judges continued to lend weight to the concept of justifiable anger in honour crimes during the 1990s.

Inspiration for this came from a judgement of the Federal Shariat Court, a parallel court created by the military government of Gen Ziaul Haq in 1980s to interpret Islamic laws.

The judgement laid down that the killing of a person who attempted to approach another family's woman with dishonourable intentions could be considered an act of self defence.

In January 2005, the parliament finally defined honour killing and amended some laws to bring the offence on a par with wilful murder.

Even in the event of an out-of-court settlement under the Islamic laws, judges are now bound to punish an honour killing with no less than 10 years' imprisonment.

Few convictions

But figuring out ways to get around the system is a favourite pastime of people in Pakistan. And the villagers sitting in the Maachhi brothers' courtyard are doing just that.


Many villagers appear to side with the Macchi brothers

They believe Ghulam Nabi Shah's stepfather would be willing to accept 200,000 rupees (about $3,200) as his price to forgive and forget. "He was a pain in the neck for him as well," says one villager.

An equal sum offered to the police may persuade them to withhold the evidence they have collected, they speculate.

Villagers say the Maachhi brothers can raise up to $8,000 by selling a little under two acres of land they own.

The drift of the conversation is obvious.

If witnesses retract their evidence and the police show a lack of interest, the Maachhi brothers could simply deny the charges and the court would be left with no option but to acquit them.

And this is not mere speculation, considering the conviction rate in honour crimes is less than 5%.

As for Elahisen, the only woman in the case, the Maachhi brothers need have no fear about any of their own family complaining about her murder.

Another of your fairy tales, David. Your story particularly exposed a peculiar trait in pakistani society but then we are talking about Islam here not the maachhi culture.

Baby, thanks for your understanding and honesty but you should also know that in katsina or anywhere else in the north you can share a bus with your husband. The governments only introduced additional vehicles to support the female folks. And please stop the unneccessary rage about killing female rape victims, i never see that happen and its never going to happen not in nigeria atleast. Like the david story a lot of these things had to do with arab and pashtun cultures.

belloti:

Another of your fairy tales, David. Your story particularly exposed a peculiar trait in pakistani society but then we are talking about Islam here not the maachhi culture.

Source of the NEWS that turned out to be fact and not fairy tale:  BBC News Report on the Honour Killing.

"Ghulam Nabi Shah, the man that they killed, belongs to a family of Syeds, said to be descendents of Prophet Mohammad and treated with reverence by rural folk."

More on the Honour Killings -

'UK Muslims condemn honour killings'.

Abdullah bin Masud narrated that the messenger of Allah said:
"The blood of a Muslim may not be legally spilt other than in one of three [instances] : the married person who commits adultery; a life for a life; and one who forsakes his religion and abandons the community."
   -- Hadith #14 of An-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths; related by Bukhari and Muslim

@belloti,
I hope you understand the difference between a fairy tale and a fact?

Barkade, i agree it may be true but then its not islamic, so in this respect it just a mere story telling.

@belloti,

The BBC report was not a "story telling", but an actual incident. Don't go round it with fancy words.

We ve said it times without number that Islam is a practical religion. It preaches that when attacked unjustly, attack back until injustice is removed. I don't know why anybody should write against that concept when naturally it is what everybody is doing.

@nuru,

I wonder why anyone who reads a simple report would assume that the BBC was attacking Islam. Are you that polarised that you can't read issues as simply as stated?

belloti:

Barkade, i agree it may be true but then its not islamic, so in this respect it just a mere story telling.

At this rate, virtually nothing is islamic! As long as it exposes islam and its rasul for the evil cult that they are then the hadith must be fake, facts are mere fairy tales, it must be a thing of culture or it is not islamic!
What really is islamic?

nuru:

We ve said it times without number that Islam is a practical religion. It preaches that when attacked unjustly, attack back until injustice is removed. I don't know why anybody should write against that concept when naturally it is what everybody is doing.

Yeah we all know islam is a practical religion. Smashing your sister's head with a rock for dating a man just goes to prove how practical it really is.
Where those maachi murderers/brothers "unjustly attacked" and by whom?
When evil is exposed in islam everyone runs to the well worn excuses of "injustice and attack"! When will someone stand up for his belief?

Who are those "naturally" carrying out the evil practice of "honor" killings besides muslims? why have we all not smashed the heads of our sisters and female cousins for daring to "dishonor" the family by dating other men?
Rather than face facts for what they are, you have all as usual gone the escapist route by trying to dance around mundane issues! What a shame.

Oh wait! Is it unislamic too for your cousin to marry your mother? Or is everyone "naturally" doing that too?

nuru:

We ve said it times without number that Islam is a practical religion. It preaches that when attacked unjustly, attack back until injustice is removed. I don't know why anybody should write against that concept when naturally it is what everybody is doing.

I wish the likes of goodguy and ope_emi, will come here and read this great news of Islam from nuru, the religion of peace indeed, rather than open their mouth to spew out jargons that we serve the same God.

Hypocrisy is the lot of some people. At least we read today of the Astronaut arrested for plotting to kill her colleague. If she is a Muslim, you people would have started mouthing ' yes we told you they are bad '.

The fact is that the 'Muslim Nation is the most justly balanced, inviting to what is good and forbidding what is evil. Muslims believe in their Lord and the hereafter. Most people don't. But when some of you are paid to attack Islam on a forum like this, then we leave you to your conscience.

@nuru,

How is the report by BBC an attack on Islam?