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Nairaland Forum / Entertainment / Sports / European Football (EPL, UEFA, La Liga) / Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 (74521 Views)
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Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Sauron1: 11:55pm On Dec 22, 2009 |
debosky: I thunk as much. . . . . Ibime's mathematical skills are playing tricks with his frail mind. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by mukina2: 11:59pm On Dec 22, 2009 |
LOL una don crase finish ![]() ![]() ![]() Hell's kitchen you are crazy!!! ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by FBS: 8:34am On Dec 23, 2009 |
~Sauron~:Ibime, you have been found out. fowl y.ansh don blow. ![]() But me I like this. ritchboy: @Sauron, what's the scores now? All square? ![]() ![]() |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by HNIC(m): 8:40am On Dec 23, 2009 |
Some interesting facts about Chelsea (culled from the net) Chelsea * Chelsea have won one of six games in all competitions since thwacking Arsenal 3-0 at the Emirates. ![]() ![]() * They have conceded more than double (15 to 7) last season's goals in their first 18 Premier League games. * It's the first time since May 2003 that Chelsea have failed to win at Upton Park |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Ibime(m): 12:24pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
Ritchboy, go and jump in Calabar river. I explicitly stated that I was talking about the league. Next time, look before you leap. @ all others, Whilst we cannot confidently extrapolate that GH would have won the league, we can confidently extrapolate that GH did not lose the league. Hence, Scolari lost the league. So do we all agree that we have never lost the league playing a 4-3-3 formation? ~Sauron~: So whats all the extra argument about? ![]() ![]() ![]() Now, if the diamond and 4-3-3 are mutually exclusive, then we can agree that if 4-3-3 never lost the league, then the diamond formation always lost the league. The only possible exemption being Mourinho's flat 4-4-2 at the beginnning of 07/08. Finally, ~Sauron~: Ancelotti also won 1 league in 9 years (with Juve and Milan) playing the diamond formation. Most would agree that the league is the most effective judge of a formation, as opposed to cups, which are subject to the vagaries of luck. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by nateevs(m): 1:21pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
Well we can say the league is not lost yet. . It's only a matter of time before we know if the diamond lost the league again. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Ibime(m): 1:29pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
nateevs: Yet is the operative word in your sentence. ![]() ![]() ![]() Whilst it may yet produce, history is not on its side. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by nateevs(m): 2:02pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
I did mean to use the YET. . because no one can deny there's a bit of truth in what you saying. However, YET also means your theory could be expunged in a matter of months. ![]() ![]() |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by debosky(m): 2:17pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
Ibime: He didn't - if he was allowed to stay till the end, that's the only point we'd be able to say he lost the league. If Fergie was sacked in December 2008 then you'd say he lost the league no? ![]()
That was not the ONLY reason you won the leagues in those years - you had players in their prime, a disciplined and highly organized defence among others. It is only by using a lazy, shallow, peripheral and superficial analysis that you'll arrive at 4-3-3 as being the prime reason behind the successes.
We can agree to that, but that is an irrelevant argument, IF the other factors involved made the difference and NOT formation.
You don't get to 3 UCL finals without doing something VERY well, and this is inevitably going to affect league performance as well. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Ibime(m): 2:25pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
debosky: Thats being unnecessarily pedantic. GH had the[i] highest win percentage of any Chelsea manager in history[/i], and he still wasnt able to claw back the deficit that Scolari left. Scolari lost the league! Anyone saying otherwise is practising an exercise in pedantry. debosky: Even with players "out of their prime", the 4-3-3 has continued to show uptill 2009 that it is an effective formation for Chelsea. This is evidenced by GH and AG, whose statistics show that they performed to almost or exactly the same level as the much vaunted 2004-2006 squad. debosky: You must be speaking paradoxically, cos Milans cup form was hardly ever reflected in their league form. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Sauron1: 2:33pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
FBS: Ibime 20-18 Ritchboy. ![]() Ibime: I don't think something as flimsy as formation can lose the league title for a club as massive as Chelsea. There are various other factors that are common denominators when the league was lost --- injuries and the funds available are also factors.
Formation does not win matches/league titles. . . . . .Players do.
This one na poppycock United did not use a static formation in all the 3 seasons they have won the league title. 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-5-1. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by debosky(m): 2:40pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
Ibime: What use is a run that was predestined to fail? ![]()
In the same light, the diamond formation has taken Chelski to the top of the league, 4 points ahead of the nearest rivals. That goes to show that the formation is NOT the issue, if not Carlo should've been sacked at this point as well.
But they kept qualifying for the CL in each season - that tells you that the coach had something about him, if not the resources to get him over that last hurdle of league dominance. Looking at the quality of the side he won those cups with, they pale in comparison to Juve's or Inter's. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Ibime(m): 2:53pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
debosky: This contradicts your earlier statement that Scolari hadnt lost the league. debosky: Scolari also started like a house on fire, and ran into the same problems we are seeing now. BTW, Man Utd have lost 5 games already and we are only halfway. Compare that to the 4 they lost last season. Where would Carlotti be on the table if Man Utd was the same as last season, without defensive crisis and with Ronaldo? ![]() This is why I've told FBS that heaven will not forgive Carlotti if he loses the league to this Man Utd team. We've never had it so good. debosky: Merely qualifying for the CL may be a desirable outcome for Gaynners, but it is not acceptable for Chelsea! ![]() ![]() ![]() debosky: Disagree!!! Seedorf was one of the best trequartistas in his time. Pirlo, Gattusso and Ambrosini are Italy WC winners and lynchpins. Errr'one knows about Kaka. Maldini, Nesta - best defenders in Italy. Sheva was arguably the best striker in the world, and Inzaghi the most prolific poacher. Dida at one point was a great goalie. Not to mention other talents. The side was brimming with quality. I would never put Juve or Inter players above AC players. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by debosky(m): 3:05pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
Ibime: I decided to let go of that, but even then it shows the flaw in your argument.
Let's look at the facts - Chelski is 4 points better than where they were at this same stage last season with a much higher goal difference. Utd on the other hand are three points worse off. In essence, even if this were last season, Carlo would still be above Utd right now. 2008: Team P W D L TotF TotA Pts GD Chelsea 17 10 6 1 28 9 36 +19 Man Utd 17 12 4 1 25 8 40 +17 2009 Chelsea 17 13 1 3 42 14 40 +28 Man Utd 17 12 1 4 37 14 37 +23 Carlo has won more games than at this same stage last season, despite losing more games. This just goes to show, as Sharon is always saying, that draws lose you significant points as well - losing games isn't the only measure.
You miss the point - if he could do that repeatedly with such a depleted side, he'll do better with a stronger team like Chelski.
All those players bar Kaka were at/past their peak by 2006. Carlo continued drawing out quality performances from them for seasons afterwards which shows just how good the man is. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Sauron1: 3:13pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
Ibime: Ibime, stop talking like an amateur. You cannot talk about the 5 games United have lost and ignore the number of games they have drawn. Fact remains, after 18 league games. . . . .Chelsea had dropped 16 points last season. After 18 games last season, United also dropped 16 points. In the current season, United have dropped 17 points from 18 league games. . . . .It does not matter if those points dropped were losses or draws. League titles are not won by the fewest number of losses a team can get. . . . .but the fewest number of points they drop. 5 losses, 12 losses don't mean shit. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Ibime(m): 3:15pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
debosky: This would hold water if you were not comparing Carlotti's regime to the disastrous diamond-formation regime of Scolari. ![]() ![]() ![]() At this stage last season, Man Utd already had their early season blip when Ronaldo was injured. Chelsea is ahead of where we were last season because Scolari's diamond was already 4 or 5 games into its capitulation. Carlotti's diamond is now starting to show the same signs of capitulation as Scolaris. For clarity, it would be better to compare Carlotti's regime with a 4-3-3 regime over the same no of games. Bear in mind that these statistics were produced before the draw with West-Ham: ![]() debosky: With the same set of players minus Kaka, Leonardo has adopted a 4-3-3 formation and they are top of the form chart in Italy, lying second in the league. Ever since Leonardo switched formation from their decrepit diamond about 10 games into the season, they have been the form team in Italy. Contrast with Carlotti's near-failure to qualify them for the CL last season. Contrast with Juventus. 2nd in the league last season, they have now switched to a diamond formation, employing Nateevs favourite playmaker (Diego) as their trequartista. End result - Ciro Ferrara on the brink of the sack!!! ![]() ![]() ![]() debosky: Carlotti was also their manager between 2001-2006 yielding a paltry league title in that 5 year period with such great players. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Sauron1: 3:30pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
Ibime: This Ibime is too stubborn. . . . . .What about the age factor? Are your players growing backwards? How many of these players are over 30? |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by debosky(m): 3:32pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
A paltry league title and 2 UCL titles - that is still an exceptional performance. Ibime: Not quite - the vagaries of the league this season with so many other capable teams taking points off the big boys shows that getting 41 points by now is an exceptional achievement.
Wrong - Utd has performed better early on this season than previous, yet Carlo is ahead of them. Carlo is having some difficulty, BUT he is doing exceptionally well overall.
Maybe. . . .but Tottenham, Citeh and Villa were not as good as they are now in previous seasons. Chelski's players have aged as well. No - there have been changes to AC's team and till the season ends, you can't tell how far Leonardo will take them. You are easily seduced by statistics which give a periodic snapshot and don't take into account the vagaries of a full season. 4-3-3 is not the solution to anything, it's simply AN option out of a multitude of choices. Every new manager will have a decent spurt of form early on. . . . .it's their performance over the full season that will determine the final assessment, not some imaginary 25 game line in the sand. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by dayokanu(m): 3:35pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
How many players were bought when Carlotti was coming in compared to other coaches? He was supposed to perform with players who are declining in form. Can you compare the form of Cech, Terry, Carvalho, Lampard and Ballack to what they were few seasons ago? Infact almost every Chelsea player declined in form yet Carlo has managed to take them to the top. Thats commendable |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Ibime(m): 3:39pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
debosky: ~Sauron~: Thats why Guus Hiddink is so relevant to this conversation. Last year when Scolari's diamond was in the midst of its capitulation, Nateevs used to blame the age of the players. The players are too old. . . . bla bla bla bla Hiddink came, and the players suddenly looked young enough to compete. All that happened was that GH changed back to the formation these players were bought for - 4-3-3! From Hiddink till now is only 6 months. Abi, are they ageing exponentially? ![]() ![]() ![]() Who is too old in Chelseas team? Lampard at 31 is at the peak age for a midfielder (27-32). Essien, Obi, Malouda etc are all under 30. Our whole defence is under 30, except Carvalho who is just 30 or 31. Drogba is the only one slightly above the peak age for a striker (25-30) at 31. Deco is above 30, but he's a rotation player. Apart from Deco and Ballack, who exactly is too old in Chelsea's team? ![]() dayokanu: Can you compare the form of the above mentioned to their form under GH? Question ![]() Only Anelka, Drogba, Cole and Ivanovic have better form under Carlotti than under GH. Everyone else has dropped except Essien who has maintained. This is because the diamond formation gives the attacking freedom to the fullbacks and strikers, and puts the tactical burden on the midfielders and centre-backs. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Sauron1: 3:49pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
Ibime: Players age everyday especially with the demands required in this league. Besides, Chelsea don't have kids like United and Arsenal. Kids who can play games like Carling Cup/FA cup so get some perspective.
6 months make a difference if we are talking about players who are 29+.
Almost everybody according to SAF. ![]() ![]()
Can you compare today's Lampard to the dynamic Lampard of 2004-2007? Petr Cech is a shadow of himself. Chelsea's formation did not change that. Carvalho, Terry, Ballack, Deco are all geriatric.
Essien and Obi are closer to 30 than 20. Don't mind their falsified ages. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by debosky(m): 3:50pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
Ibime: It was NOT formation that led to that transformation, it was a deep felt respect for the coach and a determination on the side of the players to do him proud. The diamond didn't stop DD from running, neither did it stop Terry from doing his job. They became demotivated under Scolari and once that was fixed, their abilities came to light.
You just don't get it - you CANNOT extrapolate a stretch of games where there was nothing at stake in the league compared to a full season. That Carlo hasn't done as well as Hiddink did in his own brief stint is not a clear indicator of anything - there are too many diffuse factors that are not revealed by such a cursory comparison.
Who says players must reach 32 before declining? ![]() Drogba on the other hand is still at his peak. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Ibime(m): 3:56pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
debosky: Terry is just as slow as he was around 2005/2006 when he had his back problem. What we have now is that he is not afforded the extra-protection of his fullbacks and is often exposed to one-on-one situations that expose his lack of pace. FFS, at one point in the game against West-Ham, both Terry and Carvalho were caught in the right back position, having come across to cover Ivanovic who had gone forward to attack, as is his remit in the diamond formation. Ashley Cole had to come across to centre-back to cover. As for Lampard, see below: ~Sauron~: Lampard had his best season last year, copping his routine 20 goals plus his greatest ever assists return. How did Lamps drop so fast in 6 months? Answer below: Ibime: |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Sauron1: 3:59pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
debosky: Debo, tell him.
Ibime is hallucinating. He has conveniently ignored the fact that Tottenham, Villa, Fulham and Man City have improved massively and beating em ain't easy any more. Carlo's task is the most difficult. He has inherited geriatrics and he's supposed to compete in a league that is fast improving.
You can add Petr Cech to that list too. ![]()
He is on steroids. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Ibime(m): 4:07pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
Everybody STOP PRESS!!!. . . . lets come back to this conversation at the end of January. If my theory that Carlotti's diamond is starting to exhibit it's inherent weakness is true, then I should have a lot more to say by the end of January. I hope by then no one would tell me that the poor form is down to ANC! At that point I will pull up Avram Grant's unbeaten run from mid-November to mid-February in 07/08! ![]() |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Sauron1: 4:16pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
Ibime: It does not even matter if the run of games under Avram was much easier than what Carlo will play? Ibime, where is your soccer-nous? The first 10 games, the last 10 games, the first 25 games are just statistics. . . . .U can only compare if the same set of fixtures [/b]were played. [b]Situation A Chelsea vs Hull Portsmouth vs Chelsea Chelsea vs Wolves Sunderland vs Chelsea Situation B Man Utd vs Chelsea Chelsea vs Arsenal Man City vs Chelsea Chelsea vs Aston Villa. The situations can be the 1st 4 matches under 2 different managers but the manager playing in situation A will do better than the one in situation B. D'accord? |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Ibime(m): 4:25pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
~Sauron~: Chelseas run from now till the end of January is the easiest run we can hope to face. . . only Birmingham & Fulham are in the top half. 26 Sat 12:45 PREM A Birmingham City ESPN 28 Mon 15:00 PREM H Fulham CTV January 2010 SCORE TV ATT 3 Sun 15:00 FACP H Watford 9 Sat 12:45 PREM A Hull City Sky 16 Sat 15:00 PREM H Sunderland 27 Wed 19:45 PREM H Birmingham City CTV 30 Sat 17:30 PREM A Burnley ESPN I will be hoping for success, but if flops occur due to the deficiencies I have pointed out, I will be the first to say "I told you so". |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by debosky(m): 4:31pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
Fair enough Ibime - we'll see what happens come end of January. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by dyabman(m): 5:02pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
@Ibime We didnt use the Diamond against west-ham, did we? |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Nobody: 5:43pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
Nicolas Anelka will sit out Chelsea's matches against Birmingham and Fulham - leaving boss Carlo Ancelotti without his top three strikers for the London derby.Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1237981/Nicolas-Anelka-adds-Chelsea-problems-striker-sidelined-just-Didier-Drogba-heads-Africa-Cup-Nations.html#ixzz0aWyOR7Pn Those of you banking on these babies, Borini, Sturridge and Di Santo Here is their chance, we will know if they'll cost us the league or not. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Ibime(m): 5:49pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
BlueDiva: I dont think Di Santo is coming back. They're talking about extending his loan to end of season. Dyabman, Of course we played diamond against WH. |
Re: Chelsea Fans Thread : Winners of the FA Cup And League Winners 09/10 by Nobody: 6:04pm On Dec 23, 2009 |
Ibime: Oh, okay. |
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