2smooth2shout:

EMPTY. EMPTY as usual.

did SA hesitate to arrest okah after we gave the order?

so no answer to my question.. case closed

SA is like that boy in a class that everyone takes money from but don't like or respect him.

paniki: The question asked was simply but this thread has gone 600 pages which shows that there will never be any consensus. So in hope for some general agreement, let me ask another question: Which country has the weakest military in Africa?

paniki: The question asked was simply but this thread has gone 600 pages which shows that there will never be any consensus. So in hope for some general agreement, let me ask another question: Which country has the weakest military in Africa?

CraigB:

A metaphor of what, exactly?

You are all over the place, except where you need to be.

Here is your question:



So, in other words, you aren't able to name a single country in the world that can do what you expect South Africa to do.

So, in other words, this was a silly question? Why then do you continue to demand an answer?

Why have you wasted our Saturday discussing a nonstarter?

Oh, I know! You asked a question before engaging your brain. And now, it's backtracking time. Only, it's too late.

Trust a Naai-gerian to celebrate the fact that South Africa takes your money every single day, while you try to beg for a chance to be allowed to do business in South Africa

______

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-08-02-00-nigeria-seeks-sas-vehicle-expertise


Plans to set up automotive manufacturing plants could prove beneficial to both countries.

The trade and industry ministers of sub-Saharan Africa’s two superpowers are collaborating on the concept of the “Zagerian” car. Nigeria wants to set up its own motor industry — and it wants South Africa’s help.

South Africa has agreed to share insight on its automotive production and development plan. In return, it hopes to export its components to Nigeria for a preferential rate.

But major changes would need to take place before Nigeria’s motor manufacturing landscape in any way resembles that of South Africa’s.

In order to create a truly “Zagerian” manufacturing scene, the Nigerians will need to increase import tariffs significantly, see a massive increase in demand for new cars, and tackle a consumer preference for imported vehicles.

In the first quarter of this year, car sales in South Africa totalled 113 971. Every year, over 400 000 new cars are bought by its population of about 51-million people.

In comparison, Nigeria, with a population of more than 160-million, imports a total of 50 000 new cars every year. This makes up the bulk of the new-car market in the country.

There is only one local manufacturer and it has not made significant inroads into the market.

That means South Africa sells more than eight times the number of new cars Nigeria does, despite Nigeria having more than triple South Africa’s population.

Nigeria rose from being the 13th-biggest buyer of South African automotive exports in 2011 to the ninth-biggest buyer last year. It was South Africa’s second-biggest African customer, beaten only by Zambia.

The total value of South Africa’s automotive exports to Nigeria rose from R1.3-billion in 2011 to R2.14-billion last year, according to the Automotive Export Manual published by the National Association of Automobile Manufacturers of South Africa. Last year, South Africa’s vehicle sales to Nigeria constituted almost 20% of all its automotive exports.

The import factor
The South African government-supported production and development plan replaced the motor industry development plan in January.

It aims to increase local vehicle production by incentivising local investment and hiking up import tariffs to 20% and 25% for imported components and vehicles respectively.

The South African motor vehicle market is made up almost entirely of local sales, but it has come at a cost, with some contesting that the programme has ­contributed R49-billion to the country’s trade deficit, Business Day reported in April.

Nigeria imports 150 000 used cars every year — three times the number of new cars brought into the country — and spends $360-million dollars bringing them in, according to the National Automotive Council in Nigeria. The country’s “import-friendly” tariff policy has led to cheaper imports.

“The sorry thing for Nigeria is that, while other [developing] countries were increasing their duties, Nigeria actually reduced its import duties on vehicles from 30% to between 10% and 20%, making Nigeria one of the dumping grounds for automobiles,” opined an editorial in the Leadership newspaper of Nigeria.

Unlike in South Africa, where the sale of used imported cars is banned, in Nigeria motor vehicles up to 15 years old can be sold in the country.

In a bid to protect the local industry, a government-mandated committee had been considering decreasing the age of allowable imports, which was originally 10 years.

“But instead they increased it to 15 years,” said Dianna Games, chief executive of the South Africa-Nigeria Chamber of Commerce. “There was a bit of an outcry around that.”

The allowance of older vehicle imports into the country, she said, was to enable more Nigerians to buy cars.

“A five-year-old car in Nigeria is still expensive,” said Games. “The reason [the decision to allow older imports was made] was to make it more affordable. At the time the petrol price was going up, so it was a double whammy for the consumer.”

But according to Leadership, other countries such as South Africa got around this by restricting low tariffs to small vehicles, “to help the middle class”.

Local tastes
But South African manufacturers are also up against the buying preferences of Nigerians — and according to Games, they prefer imported brands to local ones.

Chief Innocent Chukwuma, the chairperson of Nigeria’s Innoson Vehicle Manufacturing — the first automobile manufacturing plant in the country — said the company is suffering from low demand from both the private and the public sectors.

Chukwuma said in January that Nigerians refused to appreciate and patronise locally made vehicles. This was despite the fact that some of the cars were cheaper and of better quality than their imported counterparts.

The Nigerian market is not only open to formal imports. It is bolstered by the existence of informal imports from Dubai, China and other places, said Games. These products “remain popular in Nigeria because they are priced lower, not having had to have duties and tariffs applied to their sale price”.

Nevertheless, Games predicts this will change and Nigerians will seek legally imported or locally made cars as they become wealthier. “As the middle class grows, people will seek better value and proper back-up ­service,” she said.

Both Toyota and Nissan have shown an interest in setting up operations in Nigeria, should the “Zagerian” plan get the go-ahead. The South African Revenue Service does not track car exports by brands but, according to Games, Toyota and Nissan are the two most popular exports to Nigeria from South Africa.

Any preferential deal will do
Preferential opportunities in Nigeria for the manufacturers will provide a valuable leg-up for entry into a highly competitive market, said Games.

“This would be a great opportunity for South African auto manufacturers as the competition is stiff in the Nigerian market and any preferential deal would be useful.”

The Mail & Guardian conducted a price comparison between five popular retail cars in Nigeria and South Africa. It shows that prices are generally between 4% and 15% higher in Nigeria than in South Africa, although the comparison was a snapshot rather than one that should be considered reflective of the entire market.

Nevertheless, said Games, a local manufacturing capability would not necessarily translate into cheaper prices for the consumer.

“The cost of production in Nigeria is very high,” said Games. “There is nothing to say that it will be cheaper to buy local cars.”

And yet, despite myriad difficulties, the South African industry remains optimistic about its opportunities for involvement in the Nigerian motor market, which is “still in its infancy” but has great potential for growth, said Games. “As incomes grow, the market for goods and services is growing and that will drive demand.”

Pockets of potential
Norman Lamprecht, executive manager of the National Association of Automobile Manufacturers of South Africa, also saw pockets of potential.

“Opportunities of mutual benefit could be pursued, especially on the automotive component side, depending on the specific models to be produced in Nigeria,” he said.

To this end, the South African government is drafting another agreement of co-operation with Nigeria. Department of trade and industry spokesperson Sidwell Medupe says it is too early to disclose the timelines and how exactly this is being done.

“We are assessing the best ways to collaborate,” he said.


The future of the “Zagerian” car industry hangs in the balance while they do.

2smooth2shout:


*YAWNS and stretches*

so after this long story you have no political influence in Nigeria. i hope you know what can happen if we decide to cut ties or punish you.. we will nationalize those companies and continue from there. now tell me who will lose. olodo

2smooth2shout:

Metaphor. donkey.. you don't need to be a genius to understand the question. oh i forgot that you are STUP1D.
didn't i say this in my previous post. see how your desire in life is backwardness.

in our house? that's funny. so why did you arrest henry okah after we ordered you to when he fled to SA? why did your government beg for deporting Nigerians after we threatened to cut diplomatic ties and own your companies? you may have businesses here but we own you b!tches.

if you knew how to read you'll see i already answered that. i assume i'll never get my answer other than your usual empty response..

CraigB: Just look at this one:

http://nigeriavillagesquare.com/features/south-africa-ripping-nigeria-off.html



I had the misfortune of walking through a South African owned shop in Lagos recently. Mr. Price to be precise. I had just returned from a trip to Johannesburg and looking for cheap gifts i had forgotten to pick up for my hangers on when i returned. There was a piece of sweat shirt I had made a mental note to purchase at Mr. Price and decided to get it at the Nigerian store.

This was a piece of item placed at their “priced to go” racks at N1,800 (R114.74) per piece. I have a long, retentive memory and i could still recall that this same piece of sweatshirt sells for N784.24 (R49.99) in South Africa. And if you factored in my 14% tax rebates, that sweat shirt did in fact come to me at N669.34 (R42.99). That’s some 269% increase over and above the marked prices inside South Africa.

This huge price differential is typical across board on most south african owned consumer products in Nigeria. From Shoprite to Chicken Republic to Massmart (Game), Mr. Price, Woolworth and Truworths. It is a tale of undue exploitation of Nigerians by South African Businesses.

Before i am crucified for being xenophobic, it is important to understand that the criticism of South African companies have persisted as a consequence of their approach to business in Nigeria, which has often been characterised as predatory and mercantilist. South Africa’s foreign policy towards Nigeria and indeed, towards all of Africa is not based on any Pan-Africanism or anti-imperialism; it is rather based on promoting South Africa’s expanding business interests on the continent.

It is an expansionist agenda that South African corporations and parastatals have successfully implemented in a one-sided hegemonic relationship. As echoed by Foluso Phillips, the chairman of Lagos-based Phillips Consulting, a business consultancy of branding advisors, “There is much that South Africa can offer Nigeria, but there has been a problem of attitude and lack of trust as well as divergent objectives by both parties,… however, there must be a strong spirit of win-win, as the track record and perception makes it all look one-sided in South Africa’s favour.”

Believe me, I am a fan of South African business in Nigeria. Rightly or wrongly, the economic boosts our country has experienced in various sectors of the economy, in particular, retail and telecommunication, through the interventions of South African businesses have helped to redefine the consumer experience here. They have brought healthy competitions and quality alternatives to other product offerings. They have been open about their desire to conquer the consumer market and have in turn created employment opportunities for thousands of Nigerians. They saw the potential of the middle income groups in Nigeria and positioned themselves to tap into it.

My grouse however, is that this competitive positioning cannot and should not be exploitative in nature, which is exactly what is happening today. It shouldn’t happen in a market of 170 million people in which, 40% of the population describe themselves as middle income earners.

This target group alone represent a market that’s still larger than the entire population of South Africa! Worse still, this should not be happening in a country that allows businesses to repatriate 100% of entire profits back to home. And it definitely shouldn’t be happening in a country that has massive disparities in incomes with it. Some comparative economic data will suffice here:

Nigeria South Africa
Population 170 million 52 million
Gross Domestic Product $268.7 billion $375.9 billion
GDP per Capita $1,657 $7,257
Exports (1st Quarter, 2012) $750 million $150 million

How does it happen that the earning power of the average south african is more than 4 times that of his Nigerian counterpart and yet, Nigerians are made to pay almost 3 times for the same quality of goods. The reality is, South African companies are making a dangerous killing in Nigeria and we are helpless to do anything about it. There is evidence that South African companies have been involved in blatant profiteering and looting in Nigeria.

For a very long time, MTN charges in Nigeria were the highest rates in the world for cellular phone calls. And despite its massive profits, MTN has really only created about 500 permanent jobs. Most of its employees are casual or temporary workers, and just like other South African corporations, denies all of its workers the right to join a trade union. Something that would be most unheard of in their own country.

And do not be deceived by the trade surplus in Nigeria’s favour. Of the 750 million dollars worth of Nigerian exports to South Africa reported in the first three months of 2012 by The South African Revenue Service, 740 million dollars worth are made up of mineral products, mainly oil. That means, other than oil, Nigeria have absolutely no stake in South Africa’s economy.

Compare that with MTN owning 52% of Nigeria’s mobile telecommunications market; franchises like Nandos, Chicken Republic and St. Elmos, etc owning 50% of the international fast food market worth US$2.5 million per annum; DSTV accounting for 90% of the viewers that watch satellite TV in Nigeria; SASOL playing major roles in Escravos with Chevron; and Entech and Broll managing prime estates and properties including the development of the Bar Beach (Eko Atlantic) and management of over 600 fuel stations and malls across Nigeria respectively. This can’t healthy.

There is a reason why such unequal trade relations exist between Nigeria and South Africa. The bilateral agreements signed by both governments since 1999 allows this to happen without hinderance to operations. South African companies’ investments in Nigeria are heavily protected from any interference at any level by the Nigerian government. It is a license to grow as they please without consequence. Added to this, there are substantial tax rebates for companies operating here through agreements on eradicating double taxation.

South African companies that paid tax in Nigeria are protected from paying taxes back home and can repatriate the entire profits. Now, imagine the US$5.3 billion MTN had earned after tax in the 10 years of operation from 2001 – 2011 finding its way back to the South African economy tax free! Why wouldn’t the Rand be stronger than the Naira at any level?

When the foundations of this country was laid in the fight against imperialism, it was not envisioned to have it substituted with another form of neo-colonialism. The activities of South African businesses in Nigeria have been abrasive to Nigerians and the Nigerian economy.

There is a siege mentality they have on this country that needs to be addressed. They have created opportunities not to develop the Nigerian economy but to exploit its resources. We experienced that with the British, endured it with the Chinese and now, it’s the South Africans that are our new colonialists. This is not the sort of relationship we should be aspiring to at this time. The sooner our government addresses these imbalances the better.


___

YOU ARE OWNED

2smooth2shout:

old story

we can decide to nationalize them, kick you out and Nigerians will still have their jobs. you'll lose

Msauza:

I don't think that the talks would ever be a success because Islam doesn't want to be ruled under democracy. They feel that democracy support only interests of Christians and pagans.

Democracy can be best described in simple terms as the government by the people. For democracy to be progressive it has to be accepted by all the people, but the problem is that those who embrace Islam feel that democracy is against their religious principles because they do not simply believe that men should live under such freedom. Just imagine when you will have to legalise same sex marriages and afford women 50/50 powers it will not go well with those who embrace Islam. The problem is Muslim constitute almost over 40% of Nigeria's population. In this regard, is your government going to accede to their plea of envisaged separate Islamic state under Nigeria or not?

2smooth2shout:

Boring..old story

we can decide to nationalize them, kick you out and Nigerians will still have their jobs. you'll lose

further proof of you poor reading ability for not seeing "political influence" in my previous posts

NaijaPikinGidi:

Young man ... You are wasting your breathe trying to impress yourself. What is the long and short of your story?

2smooth2shout:

the guy wan test weda he get small sense. which he failed

Msauza:

Roads will always be a burden to its citizens through tax and if that is not the case in any country your infrastructure will collapse. Roads need money to maintain and I know that is very new to your ears since your roads were so bad beyond repair because of your failure to maintain them. Roads do not take five years and still remain in good condition, they need to be maintained from time to time and tell me from whose money? Do you think all that money will fall from the sky? Surely NO, you will have to food the bills through tax or other means.

Meanwhile, SA has many big construction companies who build our road and I hope you can quickly make research about Murray & Roberts Co to find out the truth for yourself. China is projecting itself as the new African colonists and they will own everything in Nigeria until your federal government wholly depend on them for everything and that way they will have you on your balls. Now since Nigeria has moved away from their indigenization policies to force foreign owned investment to relinquish part of their ownership to local businesses, surely that will cause them problems in a long run. They will all end-up being owned by foreigners, their land, businesses and even their wives. That was your stupid move by you government for failure to empower your local businesses through foreign investment.

Your link above about SANRAL foreign ownership is very wrong, because it could have been right if they said the foreign company invested over 65% on Johannesburg e-tolling project alone. The government has however used the government employees pension fund (GEPF) as collateral to secure the investment for that project.

Msauza:

Monkey see, monkey do. I have challenged you to discuss constructively with validity and sense, and this gesture depicted below is what you could only give me;


So, now tell me where is your Nigerias 100% intelligent brain?

When did a fraudulent Universities Military Games veteran earn himself any right or moral ground to demand what he lacks!?

Msauza:

You cannot do that since foreign investment is protected by international law, hence your government can be sued billions of dollars for failure to deliver on their duties. Besides, Nigeria will stand the greatest challenge of economic decline and massive loss of employment.

The only area where Nigeria is failing is by allowing foreign investment to run without any local ownership, that was the biggest blunder ever done by any country. No wonder many investors are now running to Nigeria because they know that they stand to lose hardly anything to local businesses. In this regard, Nigeria will need to shift to Mugabe's indigenization policies of forcing foreign investments to relinquish 50% ownership to Zimbabweans. Immediate economic policy shift is needed in Nigeria or else they will be owned by foreigners at every cost.

Msauza:

You cannot do that since foreign investment is protected by international law, hence your government can be sued billions of dollars for failure to deliver on their duties. Besides, Nigeria will stand the greatest challenge of economic decline and massive loss of employment.

The only area where Nigeria is failing is by allowing foreign investment to run without any local ownership, that was the biggest blunder ever done by any country. No wonder many investors are now running to Nigeria because they know that they stand to lose hardly anything to local businesses. In this regard, Nigeria will need to shift to Mugabe's indigenization policies of forcing foreign investments to relinquish 50% ownership to Zimbabweans. Immediate economic policy shift is needed in Nigeria or else they will be owned by foreigners at every cost.

NaijaPikinGidi:

You failed to counter my CORRECT statement of Kapsch Group's 65% stake in SANRAL's US$500million per annum toll revenue from gantries setup through foreign investments in SA's road infrastructure development.

Businessperson Moss Mashishi:

The electronic tolling system component of the bid was awarded to Austrian company Kapsch TrafficCom and a black economic empowerment component owned by Matemeku TMT.

Approached for comment, Mashishi said his company was awarded the tender after he delivered the best bid to Sanral. Matemeku TMT later sold its stake to Kapsch TrafficCom. Now Kapsch TrafficCom owns the majority of the shares (65%) and TMT 35 %.

“The reason we sold our 51% stake to Kapsch TrafficCom was because the GFIP required huge capital guarantees in the region of R2-billion,” Mashishi said. “There were no financial institutions in South Africa prepared to give such guarantees. That was when we looked at Kapsch TrafficCom to provide those guarantees and we then sold our TMT (Pty) Ltd stake to them.”

Kapsch:

Vienna, July 26, 2013 – The recent developments regarding the share price of Kapsch TrafficCom are „incomprehensible“ explains Georg Kapsch, CEO Kapsch TrafficCom. The Vienna stock market reacted poorly to the disclosure that the commercial start of the Electronic Toll Collection System in Gauteng, a South African province, will not be effected mid July as previously considered. Kapsch was awarded the contract to implement the toll system in September 2009. The installation of the system was carried out quickly and efficiently however, various intended start-dates over the last few months have been postponed due to a variety of protests, interventions and objections. „The situation regarding the project has not changed over the last month, therefore there is no rationale for the sudden market reaction“, stresses Kapsch. „Our system is ready to go and we are calmly waiting for a definite date to start with the commercial operation.“

NaijaPikinGidi:

Nigeria will continue to aim for more heavy investment deals with countries and institutions that have the interest of mutual benefits at heart. Nigerian/Chinese companies will continue to provide joint technical and management manpower for Nigeria's infrastructure development projects at the best costs and quality! Period!

CraigB:

This statement shows that you have no clue when talking about.

This is what happened...






This is also what heppened:



This is rubbish:

"Kapsch Group's 65% stake in SANRAL's US$500million per annum toll revenue from gantries setup through foreign investments in SA's road infrastructure development. "

1. There's no revenue yet.

2. Kapsch have a contract to collect tolls and manage the system.

3. The gantries did not contribute towards "SA's road infrastructure development".

4. The gantries are only a toll collection tool, which hasn't even started working yet.

5. The quoted text above tells the rest of the story.

6. When the contract has run its course (assuming it all goes ahead), what will Kapssch own again?

You're desperate.

NaijaPikinGidi:

Can you quote where I stated that revenue had been earned? Due to ongoing litigations there is no revenue yet ... but the revenue is surely going to flow! Idiot who fails to read and comprehend! Until your COSATU and OUTA and civil society can win against SANRAL in court, the gantries have been built with borrowed money and SA is contractually obliged to pay up! Minimum ZAR2.7billion per annum! Stop fooling around senselessly.

CraigB:

Yes, of course. Using loans given to you by the Chinese.
Better than expensive loans and credit facilities with high interest rates hanging over SA like a dark cloud.

Makes perfect sense.

1. Have them give you a loan. Correct

2. Hire them using their loan. Wrong

3. Give them business using their loan. You are a fool

4. Pay their loan back, with interest. Even your SA banks charge you as much as 17% in personal credit interest! So what's your point?

Mutual benefit,alright. Idiot

CraigB:

Where did I say you said that?

I am simply telling you that your whole thinking is flawed.

And your understanding of the basic concepts rests on your ability to comprehend what it is that Kapsch invested in.

They have a contract. They did not invest in South African infrastructure.

The bone of contention is whether foreigners own our roads.

You have demonstrated that you know nothing about the Kapsch situation.

The IdI0T is you, clearly, non?

NaijaPikinGidi:

You are quite lucky I lost my original response to your nonsense above ... as my device battery ran flat while waiting for my connecting flight.

Your comprehension skill is still spot on at 33%. Can you quote where exactly I mentioned that SANRAL had foreign ownership? You failed to counter my CORRECT statement of Kapsch Group's 65% stake in SANRAL's US$500million per annum toll revenue from gantries setup through foreign investments in SA's road infrastructure development. You keep skirting around the main issues rather than respond to them. If South Africa gets foreign direct investments for infrastructure development why should Nigeria/China bilateral investments become an issue for badmouthing by your comrades on this thread.

Nigeria will continue to aim for more heavy investment deals with countries and institutions that have the interest of mutual benefits at heart. Nigerian/Chinese companies will continue to provide joint technical and management manpower for Nigeria's infrastructure development projects at the best costs and quality! The highlighted portion of your comment above apart from being so laughable, is a reflection of your chronic stupidity! Approximately US$350million (ZAR2.7billion) per annum of toll money from road users going to Kapsch Group is a massive rape on your economy! The roads SANRAL has built is on borrowed money with huge interests already accruing on the capital. The links I provided are just a scratch on the surface of the actual state of your debt to your American and European masters!

Until you and Mike..ZA can address the points I raised squarely, please leave the rest of us to talk military matters! You have no clue about globalisation and bilateral trade in international relations! Period!

NaijaPikinGidi: Empty statements*

NaijaPikinGidi:

I'm a Blockhead as usual!

NaijaPikinGidi:

Blockhead as usual!

NaijaPikinGidi:

If we did it for your Aparthied sake to the British ... we have the power to do it to your spineless setups in Nigeria! Nigeria is not Zimbabwe! Again, just like SA laws that require majority local shareholding ... our laws are supreme and will have to be respected!

2smooth2shout:
the guy's a complete nutcase

NaijaPikinGidi:

If we did it for your Aparthied sake to the British ... we have the power to do it to your spineless setups in Nigeria! Nigeria is not Zimbabwe! Again, just like SA laws that require majority local shareholding ... our laws are supreme and will have to be respected!