The Parrabats use red shoe polish to match their berets. They take this with them when they go to other units like SF etc.

Can we put this to rest now ? If I wanted to see pics of red boots i'd go to cosmo.com!

nemesis2u:


lolzzz

thats maroon not pink

i have seen Indian paramilitary with these maroon shoes , there is no benefit per se its tradition , something passed down over the years.

if u insist it kind of helps to loosely differentiate between different military, paramilitary , reserve arms and also helps to obfuscate clandestine operations involving say SF soldiers dressed up as para military etc etc.

it seems ur fascinated with pink

Very civilised.
Ratel turrets were mostly smoke and swear words.
And if you forgot to open the ejection port , you'd get hot 20mm empties flying everywhere.
Screens are nice , but don't underestimate the value of big vision ports.

frumentius:
61mech, as someone who's spent a fair amount of time in a Ratel, thought you'd enjoy this pic of the Badger Tactical Crew Simulator.

It's so you don't waste a $60 000 missile on a Toyota.
Would be interesting to see if they shoe-horn the 60mm mortar into a fire support role. The 90 will be sorely missed, although the Kat does a good job too.

MikeCZA:
The 30mm on the missile would have been useless. Wouldn't it?

Yeah, In the book of Patches the LCT30 with the ATGM means much mooooore di..........k. What I wanna see are the type of sensors intergrated into it.


Like the Fire support variant should have advanced/better sensors and carry more ammunition than the section variant.

It was largely funded by Saab. The IP is theirs to do with what they want. The SANDF have not been able to fund anything in the last decade.

These cooperative projects are the only way the local defence industry will survive. Its utterly pointless for them to rely on the SA gov. for contracts. Companies like Paramount don't even cater for the SANDF and focus exclusively on the international market.

frumentius:
@nemesis2u: SA's loss, India's gain. The SA Army funded the development and the finished thing is a "Make in India" product!
It seems selling IP is here to stay for the SA defence industry.

Someone on another forum said they saw a whole parking lot full of them on a base in Bloem recently. Can't remember the details.

I never understood why they never bought the EMAK35 for the Badger. It was the original gun meant for Hoefyster. 35mm is almost double as powerful as most 30mm rounds and much more available. It could also be upgraded to 50mm supershot by just swapping the barrel

frumentius:


2 troops in Bangui would've done brilliantly. None lying around unfortunately. 235 remained in 1998 (Defence Review) and by 2010, all scrapped. Some question the 90mm gun, but in the context of technicals, more than sufficient. And yes, the ammo would present problems.

In the highly unlikely event the MC-90 were to be resurrected, what do you think of Denel's 30mm cannon?

We should still have Elands lying around SANDF depots. If you look at the nr.s exported and the nr.s produced there should be a lot left. Problem is they'd have to be brought back and upgraded with diesels etc. Denel already has a modern fire control upgrade for that turret. You'd only have to modify it for the 90mm.

A couple of squadrons would be enough, but the troops still need to be trained and new units stood up. Then there's the issue of 90mm ammo stocks. I doubt they have been replenished over the years and the Ratel 90's must have burnt through a lot. I doubt Denel would reopen production and the SANDF's ammo standards are much higher than some of the other countries operating them, so they won't buy surplus.

frumentius:


Meanwhile in 1990/1 Mechem came up with the MC-90 as a Eland replacement and we didn't pursue it. And in 2015 what did Panhard do? Came up with the Crab. Looking at it, it's very clear where the inspiration lies.
One could write a book on all the abandoned/incomplete projects the SA defence industry has churned out since 1990.

Mech section has the 2ib in charge of the mag crew. Give him something to do instead of shouting a the poor gunners ! PAW would be great for target identification as well as suppressive fire. 40mm is great, but you can only carry so much of it. Put 2x MGL gunners in your weapons section.

Let me throw another spanner in the works. How about replacing grandpa's 50cal on your MOT vehicles with the gun the krauts were firing at him? The GI1 20mm. Specifically the GAMA multi caliber model Denel developed. You can still train with cheap 12.7mm ammo, but deploy with 20mm. Big force multiplier over the 50.

Click below for a PDF on the development of the GAMA.

http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.saimeche.org.za/resource/collection/F047A24F-D70F-426D-BB64-C05CC8294367/Van_Heerden__Kleingeld__Mathews_and_Geyser-2006_06__600_dpi.pdf


GI1 pics bellow.

frumentius:


What about a dismounted section? The flat trajectory of the 20x42mm Inkunzi PAW is supposedly better than the 40mm Y2. So where do you sacrifice?

Nota Bene: I have absolutely no problems with the future employment of the Inkunzi Strike - belt fed automatic vehicle mounted (61 Mech optimised !); nor of the Truvelo 20x42mm CMS (hell, the Recces already have it in their arsenal).

What does one do with the Inkunzi PAW? Excellent weapon, yes. 2 Middle East countries have bought it, yes. But they're not the crowd to develop doctrine! EU/NATO countries are looking at it as an alternative to the very expensive XM-25, yes.

Still doesn't solve the tactical/doctrinal conundrum for the SANDF.

MOT flatfoots would also benefit from a much lighter ammo loadout. It would also explain SF interest in the PAW. Don't get me wrong , I loved the old 40 mike-mike. HE is a thumper and you have lots of ammo types for different jobs (ilumn,less-lethal,willie pete etc.) Rapid firing 6x HE's to start off your ambush (or get out of one)

PAW has a great niche use in vehicle checkpoint protection. VBIED's are a big problem in Iraq,Syria etc. and a 40mm is hard to shoot accurately at a moving target. Can also cause a lot of injuries to bystanders. Here the PAW's 20mm really shines. Accurate enough to put through a windshield at distance and just enough HE to take out occupants. Would explain the first orders coming from the ME.

frumentius:


What about a dismounted section? The flat trajectory of the 20x42mm Inkunzi PAW is supposedly better than the 40mm Y2. So where do you sacrifice?

Nota Bene: I have absolutely no problems with the future employment of the Inkunzi Strike - belt fed automatic vehicle mounted (61 Mech optimised !); nor of the Truvelo 20x42mm CMS (hell, the Recces already have it in their arsenal).

What does one do with the Inkunzi PAW? Excellent weapon, yes. 2 Middle East countries have bought it, yes. But they're not the crowd to develop doctrine! EU/NATO countries are looking at it as an alternative to the very expensive XM-25, yes.

Still doesn't solve the tactical/doctrinal conundrum for the SANDF.

1. I would allocate the Inkunzi PAW to the section 2ib running the MAG crew as his primary weapon.
Would be very useful for indicating targets for the gunners.
SOP: load the damn thing outside my vehicle please.

2. If you are unhappy about replacing your 40mm AGL with the 20mm Inkunzi Strike, just think of it as a replacement for you vehicle mounted 7.62. It can do both.

frumentius:




@61Mech, @kikuyu1, @Mikeczar and everyone else interested in such questions:


Following on from the above on the place of the Y2 grenade launcher in a section.
Denel PMP's 20x40mm cartridge with its varied projectiles (API, HE, SAPHEI/T and PRAC/T) has already spawned 3 different weapons systems: the Inkunzi Strike, Truvelo 20x40mm CMS(a new compact anti-materiel rifle specifically for the 20x42mm, based on the existing large-calibre CMS) and the Inkunzi PAW A2.(pics attached).

Now, the former 2 weapons' role is self-evident. But what of the iNkunzi personal area weapon (in earlier versions known as the Neopup PAW)? Is it a section or platoon or company weapon? With the flat trajectory of the 20x42mm suppossedly superseding the 40mm currently employed in the Y2, will it be the grenadier's standard weapon? And so on and so forth...

Or is it, as my colleague at Doctrine Dev. says, "a weapon looking for a role?" A formulation with which I disagree, by the way. Sometimes doctrine has to follow/adapt to accommodate weapons systems which are out there. The needs and experiences of soldiers out in the field have been known to presage the adoption of weapons and systems not currently covered by existing doctrine and TTPs.

An aside: I like the response of the Denel PMP guy when we asked about the name evolution from Neopup to Inkunzi PAW. "For a devastating weapon, Neo(new)pup v.s. inkunzi(bull) [b]PA[/b]w. Which one denotes serious bad-assery?"

PIC 1: Inkunzi Strike, belt-fed fully automatic with 350 rounds/minute effective out to 600m and suppressive fire against area targets to 1 000m, vehicle mount either RWS or manually-operated, tripod for dismount under development;

PIC 2&3: Truvelo 20x42mm CMS; and

PIC 4: Inkunzi PAW.

Eish !
That's a bunched up patrol formation. I hope its only for the cameras.
What ambush dreams are made of.

africaken254:
Egypt armed forces

We used these at the section level. Problem is that you need a dedicated (x-tra) rifleman for it. We tried running it with a rifle and it's not pleasant.
When you run with it on your back it feels like Floyd Mayweather is punching you in the kidneys and if you have to dive for cover it comes flying off your back and into the back of your head.

You really need to attach a grenadier to your squad/section for it or have it in a weapons platoon like the USMC. Alternatively you could let the section leader or 2IB run it, but they have a lot on their plate already when you are in contact.

kikuyu1:


If it were up to me this would be standard on the section level in every infantry formation. Truly a wonderful tactical innovation
man portable
explosive 40 mm grenades up to 300 m
simple construction and use with six shots

Whats not to like!!

CIA supplied landy with a 106mm RC gun.
UNITA not 61Mech

jln115:

Gunbuggy ,61 Mechanised Battalion

Maybe they just shot a tourist.

ActivateKruger:


Oh well he didn't mention the word "Recce", however he said it was an SADF hitman which made me conclude it was a Recce on recon or to eliminate a high value MK target in Mozas.... He goes on mentioning what the "hitman" was wearing, the bicycle and also had a big-lensed camera posing as a foreign tourist.

Normally I don't take former MK claims seriously, they normally brag about their incompetence. But this guy sounded very real, he could flawlessly recall names of the other MK members he was with and how the "hitman's" cover was blown.


As you know, the Recce has plenty of botched operations. We only know those where an operator was captured alive and the enemy made it public ( eg Cabinda and Zimbabwe), the ones where operators were killed and bodies not recovered are kept in secrecy and the enemy couldn't provide a direct tangible link with the SADF as they often wore Cuban, SWAPO or Tanzanian uniform when operating deep inside ET.

Where is Charlie Coy. ?

Ratel 32Bravo wants to know. Maj. Mitchell will be most upset.

Patchesagain:


They don't, just normal Ratel 20s

Is that a standard commercial truck chassis on the Rwandan Atmos ?

Good luck going off-road with that.
Especially in the rainy season around those parts.
If you're gun is stuck in the mud, the caliber size is inconsequential B.T.W.

africaken254:
remind me again whats the calibre of your G-6 self-propelled howitzer

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbZP1POEqAU

 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxFVmjMwGuI

Great for airshows, but it would get you killed in real AA combat.
You bleed off virtually all your airspeed doing these manoeuvres. BIG no-no in dogfighting. Even if you get a missile shot off, the other guys wingman will kill you almost for certain, so the best outcome is a 1 for 1 suicide tactic. IF you get the other guy.

M14A1:

How many persons out of 50 do you know that can perform a backflip at a spot??
.......not many i guess.

The kulbit is a full cobra


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2dgi2NhMSw

MikeCZA:
6 × 6 and command variant.

groundshout
recovery
sespir

frumentius:
I'd love to know which of Denel's clients passed on our NTW-20 to a Hamas sniper in Gaza.

Barking up the wrong tree dude.
That's NOT a NTW-20. Look again.
Carry handle is too small and the wrong shape where it attaches. They just copied it.
BTW India makes a bad knockoff of the NTW-20.

Jees dude .
You need to show this vid to someone who had served in a modern 1st world military. If I were their Co., there would be some NCO's running around flipping truck tires for the afternoon. Don't get upset now , but i'm just going to point out a couple of things.

1. ZERO and I mean ZERO camp discipline. In an operational area of all places ! I see guys walking around like they are on RnR hanging laundry. 2/3's of them are walking around without their weapons at arms reach. Not a SINGLE one wearing any type of webbing/combat gear with ammo. I wonder if their officers even camp with them.

2. Guys standing on top of vehicles goofing around. Do you know what HE does when it hits hard armor ? I don't see anyone manning the guns keeping watch over that laager.

3. Personnel walking around in flip flops and civvie t-shirts. If I need to explain to you why this is wrong, I really hope you're not in any type of command position for your troop's sake.

4. Zero attempt at any type of camouflage of their positions. That bright orange dump truck in the middle of your position would make for a excellent aiming point for my mortar spotter. Christ, even ISIS smears mud on their Toyotas to hide the civvy paintjobs.

5. Absolutely no noise discipline in that camp. A patrol should be able to walk in the bush within 50m of your platoon and not know you're there.

6. Zero organisation of personnel. Everyone is standing around in groups having a chat and "vlegging piele". Mortar shrapnel and gpmg gunners love big groups of people standing around, not to mention snipers.

Vehicles should parked in laager, pointing outwards with personnel spread out EVENLY in their squads between them with fields of fire assigned by their NCO's beforehand. They should be in semi dug in positions with all eyes facing outwards. If you're going to take off your webbing, at least have it within reach along with your weapon for christ sake. Turrets/radio's manned by troops on watch.
No more than 3 people standing in a group and NO smoking at night.
Mortar pits should be dug, supplied and manned. You need to fire Ilum within seconds of an attack at night.

All these things to be observed at all times, whether at training facility, or in area of operations. NO exceptions. People died learning and re-learning these lessons.

Feel free to be pissed at my assessment. Try and find a military professional in any quality infantry organization to disagree with any of my observations and I'll type you an apology.

Henry240:
If you don't view this video, you have no business discussing any topics on any African military.

Highlights


- The guy on the Reva MRAP, "screaming na suffer oh!". He said " when you guys see us on T.V eating food, you'll think we are enjoying, but "na die-hard we dey here so".


* LMAO @ Suicide cameraman


- when they came under fire, there was this particular guy who was walking calmly with RPG tubes, i wonder why he did that.


- NA grandpa Vickers broke-down and had to be towed by another Vickers.


- I particularly like the defensive position NA vehicles take as soon as clearing operations begin, very tact.


- NA Pick-up trucks are so well armed. The Hilux is now an integral part of NA mobility, it's good to see the army arming them with HMGs and the provision of a ballistic shield for the gunner.


- Another interesting thing is, despite the fact they are on operations, NA instructors still put soldiers through their paces in marksmanship. Even commandos are not left out, everybody practices marksmanship. Very beautiful, i've never seen this with other militaries.


- The importance of LUH, such as the A109 cannot be under-estimated, from bring supplies to troops, spare tires for vehicles to taking freed hostages. The A109 has proven to be an integral asset.



In all, there are still multiple improvements that can be made, however no military can have it all. Only if we can invest in more IFVs to support the Tanks and MRAPs.

MikeCZA:
The 20mm cannon is nothing new but an improved or upgraded version of MG 151 cannon.

Which was used on helicopter gunships during the boarder wars. Also used by SF units mounted on vehicles.

It can never replace the mentioned weapons in the infantry. The AGL is an effective fire support weapon both direct and indirect. Meaning it can be used like a mortar.

The gun I mentioned above is not the GI-1 (MG151) you are referring to , but the new 20x42 mm belt-fed iNkunzi Strike support weapon.

http://www.janes.com/article/62351/denel-making-progress-on-fully-automatic-20x42mm-support-weapon

Its for mounted use and is meant to replace the above mentioned weapons as it can be mounted on anything that fits FN Mag and up, especially for remote weapons stations. The AGL is a good weapon, but has range and accuracy problems and the 60mm patmor can do a better job at indirect fire at the platoon level. The 50cal has range ,but no HE capability. The iNkunzi is an attempt at performing all these roles.

The 50 cal is now almost 100 years old. No reason to not try and improve on it.

patches689:


Interesting.

Well, my thoughts on weight were based on the age old adage that a soldier can only hump like 40-60kg, so you save weight on your SAW and thus can carry more of something else.

That 20mm going to see service?

That plus the new low-cost turret from Denel could serve as major organic fire-support for Moto Inf if mounted on a Casspir or Nyala.

The SAW caliber debate has been going on for a while now. My opinion is that the proof is in the pudding. In actual combat in Iraq/Afghanistan the guys in the field want the 7.62mm back in the squad. Not a very nice feeling when you are getting overmatched by a PKM and your M249 is just pissing in the wind. I don't have a problem with 5.56 in a assault rifle (6.5 would be optimal), but it's just not going to penetrate in the African bush as a GPMG.

That 20mm is just being launched now at AAD. It looks like we might have a system that can replace 7.62/50cal/40mm AGL. Jack of all trades , master of none.
BTW the 20mm PAW has already been sold to a foreign customer. Probably for SF

patches689:


10 internets to you good sir!!

Its a remarkable SAW, almost no recoil.

One would think they would sell like condoms in a brothrel. But for some reason they are pretty rare, maybe Singapors limited manufacturing capacity has something to do with it.

Suffice as to say, if the SANDF were to drop the R4 +50 round mag in favor of it, I would be thrilled.

The problem is the 100 round drum. Causes stoppages. That's why the Singapore army runs it with mags. The original R-4 50 round mag was meant for the planned heavy barrel R-4 that was never adopted. We didn't have that many problems with the 50 rounders as long as you download them to 40-45. They might just be getting old now. Mags don't last forever. The 35 round mag also had to be downloaded to 30 for it to function properly.

Personally, i don't like the 5.56 saw concept and you can see the countries involved in Afghanistan/Iraq now having buyer's regret. If your squad can't handle the weight, you have a fitness problem not a caliber one. Mujahideen hump 7.62 PKM over mountain ranges all day long on a loaf of flatbread.
Here's a pick of the r4 heavy as well as the new denel 20mm belt fed.

You can also fire those grenades manually by the nr. Which makes them function just like any other smoke grenade. No info in that pic that indicates it had a laser pointing at it.

chkil:


this is a traditionnal smoke screen for tank


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk7CfD0m8EA

or this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TODr5NKNuCg


but what we see in my pic is a Countermeasures anti-FLIR smoke grenades a part of the SHTORA-1 Active Defense System

the shtora1 system have 3 part a Laser illumination sensors , a EO interference emitters and the anti-FLIR smoke grenades .

on the pic below another part of the shtora system (EO interference emitters OTShU-1-7 ) on algerian T 90 SA and the other part of the Shtora system

chkil:
T90 SA Tank using the SHTORA active protection system - algerian army

Relax Dude
He's just popping a smoke screen not SHTORA

denisfidha:

Was thinking in that direction, but still think its weird, since all the planes were lined up out of that hanger on the right, you can count all of them, and then when you look at the end of the runway, there seems to be another hanger (or something) that has been white-outed too, why not hide the one housing all the f-5s, tucanos..... Weird

Only US Gov can really force Google to white-out a sat image. (Google's market cap is 475 billion while Kenya's gdp is 55 billion.) Even Putin can't force them to block images.
So, most likely the US have planes operating there.