dayokanu:
So when discussing world cup when should we make the cut off. Going by your analysis Italy would be at par with Brazil.

the world cup is a different competition altogether. it was never set up in a way that only continent champions can
participate. don't mix apples and oranges. if we go by the old CL title, bayern shouldn't even have participated cos they were not the champions of germany in 2012.

We can say players like Pele Cryuff Beckenbauer George Best never existed because they played over 30yrs ago

more apple and oranges analogy.....answer my question, since we are measuring trophies on the continent, are liverpool better than bayern?

debosky: This might be a personal opinion, but I hold the CL trophies won over 30 years ago in lower regard to those won more recently. Anything before 1980 should be classed differently for historical reasons IMO. It is far more difficult to win CL trophies in quick succession in the modern era than it has ever been.

In the modern era, Bayern and United have only won the CL twice - on that measure they are at par at best.

Monsieur,
You don't have to discredit teamswho have had a heritage just because you didn't follow football around that era.
Why not discard any European titles won before 1992 since the tournament was simply a home-and-away format with the finals in a neutral venue?
That way the great Milan side of the late 80s would lose two titles of their 7.
I agree it has gotten harder to win the title these days, but you cannot discard those feats back then just for that simple fact.

coogar:

the world cup is a different competition altogether. it was never set up in a way that only continent champions can
participate. don't mix apples and oranges. if we go by the old CL title, bayern shouldn't even have participated cos they were not the champions of germany in 2012.

And Man United shouldn't have participated in 1999 as well. It goes both ways, hombre.

coogar: bayern shouldn't even have participated cos they were not the champions of germany in 2012

Man utd shouldn't have participated in 1999 that they won cos they were not champions of England in 98

StarBoard:
Monsieur,
You don't have to discredit teamswho have had a heritage just because you didn't follow football around that era.
Why not discard any European titles won before 1992 since the tournament was simply a home-and-away format with the finals in a neutral venue?
That way the great Milan side of the late 80s would lose two titles of their 5.
I agree it has gotten harder to win the title these days, but you cannot discard those feats back then just for that simple fact.

By 2030 pundits of that time too should say the trophies won circa 2000 shouldn't count because it was 30yrs ago

dayokanu:

By 2030 pundits of that time too should say the trophies won circa 2000 shouldn't count because it was 30yrs ago

My point exactly.
The Barcas, Madrids and Milans who won at least 2 titles in this period would be considered dinosaurs.
It beats me that peeps would want to extinguish a particular era from football.

Emperoh: just shows how we choose convenience just to win an argument.
Does it favour you? No! Then discredit it, period!

Word.

dayokanu: It's obvious to any two year old that teams In the same league are measured by the league titles and teams I'm different league by the continental trophies

by simple logic, u're implying dt liverpool(7 european cups) shud be rated above bayern(5 european cups). In order words, any playa dt leaves liverpool for bayern is downgrading himself. U just shot ursef in d foot, bro.

dayokanu:

How is Liverpool better than Bayern explain

cus liverpool have more continental trophies than bayern munich..11-9

StarBoard:
And Man United shouldn't have participated in 1999 as well. It goes both ways, hombre.

exactly my point......

which is why we should not compare the old format with the new format! bayern were guaranteed appearance every season pre-93 because it's easy for them to be champions of germany with every other bundesliga team being shyte----it's not the same in england where united have teams like forest, villa and liverpool competing.

dayokanu:
By 2030 pundits of that time too should say the trophies won circa 2000 shouldn't count because it was 30yrs ago

another daft submission.
we are not discrediting the trophies you won based on how long ago - we are questioning the format used to choose the participants of the old champions league. why aren't we discrediting the league titles won by united in the 60s? cos nothing has changed league-wise!

if the current trend continues till year 5,030 then no one would put the achievements of any club down. you have to win your league to play the champions league pre-93. it then means celtic have a better chance of playing it every season than arsenal/chelsea. in that wise, bayern's first 3 champions league titles are worthless!

StarBoard:
Liverpool not winning the league doesn't have a direct co-relation to how strong a league is.
They simply haven't been good enough all these years.

it then begs the question - why aren't they good enough all of a sudden? didnt this same liverpool side win the champions league in 2005 or are we on the same page here?

The Celtic analogy, my friend is not a very good one to use, because Celtic haven't won anything in Europe in like forever. Domestic titles don't cannot be enough to flaunt your pedigree. Europe will still remain the benchmark for who is who.

it then means liverpool are better than bayern - period!!!!
you are discrediting celtic because they have not won in europe like forever and it was with the same mouth you were challenging debosky for discrediting bayern's achievements when there was no substitutions in the game of football. your ability to speak from the either side of the mouth is exemplary!!!!

And for real we cannot say whether or not Bayern would achieve anything in the Premiership simply because it hasn't, cannot and will not happen. Again it's tough to compare leagues given that Bayern won theirs with a 25 point margin yet their two top sides were finalists in Europe's premier competition. Which I can conversely view and conclude that the other leagues might as well be substandard if Dortmund were finalists this season.

i did not start the argument, dayo did!
only a lunatic would compare the competitiveness in the premier league to the dross in bundesliga. anyhow you want to punt it, english clubs are better german clubs. if it's about number of league titles, celtic and porto are better than bayern. if it's about european titles, liverpool and milan are better than bayern. if it's about overall trophies won, united are better than bayern.....

so which is which?

SailorXY:
I stumbled on the game just as it was about to kick off on SS3 & decided to see for myself first hand, so based on the game & the little I saw from the first leg of same match-up;
1. Zaha is a natural talent who is still very raw
2. Zaha has got pace to rival Antonio Valencia himself
3. Zaha has a terrible short pass accuracy
4. Zaha got good tricks & his left side is just as good as his right side
5. Zaha does a little bit more than he should many times
6. Zaha is a tad inexperienced
7. Zaha is akin to Nani in terms of tracking back & putting his defensive shift
8. Zaha may need some time before he is able to displace any winger on the United payroll at the moment
9. Zaha has got a little bit of the ego issues
10. Zaha, with the proper grooming, will be as good as Nani but on a consistent level *which is world class tbh*

uncle, zaha is as good as nani, valencia, young, bebe, manucho, obtertan, diouf, pogba and a very long list of other raw materials that we saw walked into the old traford from the front door and they all left via the back door. am not wishing him bad though just supporting ur opinion from the critical think aspect of it.

@those counting trophies and comparing man u and buyern, how many of these trophies where won by the ref. epl is a joke.

dademola: by simple logic, u're implying dt liverpool(7 european cups) shud be rated above bayern(5 european cups). In order words, any playa dt leaves liverpool for bayern is downgrading himself. U just shot ursef in d foot, bro.

Show us how Liverpool got their 7 European trophies

Fussbot: cus liverpool have more continental trophies than bayern munich..11-9

Liverpool is in the doldrums currently and cant even qualify for Europe, Bayern is the European champion currently playing 3 of the last 4 finals

Apples and Oranges

coogar: exactly my point......

which is why we should not compare the old format with the new format! bayern were guaranteed appearance every season pre-93 because it's easy for them to be champions of germany with every other bundesliga team being shyte----it's not the same in england where united have teams like forest, villa and liverpool competing.

The earlier world cup never had 5 participants from Asia, So they should be wished away

Some world cups didnt have countries from Africa, Should we also claim those world cus were irrelevant

We can also say in Earlier world cups were 8 Countries participated it was easier to win vs 32 countries tournament we have now

Italy won a World cup having to play 4 games vs Spain who had to play 7 games in 2010.

Should those world cups be equal?

another daft submission.
we are not discrediting the trophies you won based on how long ago - we are questioning the format used to choose the participants of the old champions league. why aren't we discrediting the league titles won by united in the 60s? cos nothing has changed league-wise!

The format of the world cup has changed. Earlier competition used to be knockouts, Earlier qualification used to be based on invitations. Its extremely moronnic for anyone to claim the world cup of 1938 is the same as the One of 2010 in format

if the current trend continues till year 5,030 then no one would put the achievements of any club down. you have to win your league to play the champions league pre-93. it then means celtic have a better chance of playing it every season than arsenal/chelsea. in that wise, bayern's first 3 champions league titles are worthless!

in 1974 only one country qualified from Africa, In 2010 5 countries qualified.

Only an autistic savant would equate them

dayokanu:
Liverpool is in the doldrums currently and cant even qualify for Europe, Bayern is the European champion currently playing 3 of the last 4 finals

Apples and Oranges

this is a retardëd logic.....
liverpool have 8 european trophies, bayern have 7. you told us with your mouth that teams from different leagues should be assessed by their european achievements...liverpool still won the big ears as at 2005 and played another final in 2007.
--------------
--------------

david moyes is a loonie....
eric steele and rene meulesteen gone? that's some wealth of experience money cannot buy being flushed down the toilet. moyes has started failing even before the season kicked off!

dayokanu:
The earlier world cup never had 5 participants from Asia, So they should be wished away. Some world cups didnt have countries from Africa, Should we also claim those world cus were irrelevant

and since asia started participating, what have they won? we are destroying the credibility of the old champions league format that there were plenty of shyte teams then and you are equating that to the absence of shyte teams in the old world cup format!

We can also say in Earlier world cups were 8 Countries participated it was easier to win vs 32 countries tournament we have now Italy won a World cup having to play 4 games vs Spain who had to play 7 games in 2010.
Should those world cups be equal?

you are painting contrasting situations here. quality teams played in the old world cup in contrast to the avalanche of shyte teams you have there these days....that's the direct opposite of what's happened to the champions league!

The format of the world cup has changed. Earlier competition used to be knockouts, Earlier qualification used to be based on invitations. Its extremely moronnic for anyone to claim the world cup of 1938 is the same as the One of 2010 in format

quality teams played in 1938, shyte teams played in the champions league pre-93. apples and oranges!!!

in 1974 only one country qualified from Africa, In 2010 5 countries qualified. Only an autistic savant would equate them

stüpid argument again.....
we have shown examples of teams that wouldn't have been in the old champions league format but have gone on to win the competition in the new format.

since africa/asia started producing 5 representatives each, how many times have they won the world cup? if africa/asia played in the 30s, they still wouldn't have won the world cup....the new format of the world cup has reduced it's quality, the new champions league format improved it's quality....apples and oranges!

dayokanu:

Liverpool is in the doldrums currently and cant even qualify for Europe, Bayern is the European champion currently playing 3 of the last 4 finals

Apples and Oranges

and dat makes ur continental trophies more dan dias?

U said clubs should be measured by dia european success

And I here I present 2 u liverpool dat have more continental trophies dan bayern ..so are they more successful dan bayern or not?

elampiro:


Coogar you keep calling me a liar yet you are the one stating lies.

1. I never said Berbatov can't use his head.

[b]2. You said Rooney scored 40 penalties for United.
See below for correct record. Even from United official website has information on it.

Rooney/United penalty record.

Rooney has taken 28 penalties in United's shirt and he has missed 9. He has only 14 Premier League goals from penalties.
2009/10 .... 4
2010/11.....3
2011/12..... 6
2012/13...... 1

Rooney's penalty scoring record. Goals. And assist since 2008.
http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/epl/players.asp?player=16340
United has only had

Since 2005, United has had 53 EPL penalties and converted 38.

Contrary to your claim, In 2011/12 United had 11 penalties, two were missed and 9 scored. Rooney scored 6, Berbatov 2 and others 1. In 2009/10, Rooney only scored 4 penalties.

So if you removed Rooney's penalties, he will have 22 EPL goals in 2009/10 seasons, and 21 goals in 2011/12 which are still higher than Berbatov best ever season of 21.

Berbatov statistics.
Berbatov figures

http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/epl/players.asp?player=5887

EPL penalty statistics by clubs and seasons

http://www.myfootballfacts.com/Premier_League_Penalty_Statistics.html

Also, stop calling penalties cheap. If it was cheap, Berbatov should not have been so harshly criticized in his lazy miss Against Everton in FA cup semi final.

3. Assist

You also said I lied about assist, the links above on Rooney and Bebatov total shows that:

2008/9 - 2011/12
Rooney, 76 EPL goals (13 from penalties) Net is 53.
Assist is 26

Berbatov, 47 EPL goals (2 from penalties), net is 45.
Assist is 20

So, where did I lie? Nani had the highest EPL assist for 3 years aggregate prior to this season. Rooney was high too but can't remember the position.

4. On the issue of performing in the big games and vital matches.

Berbatov has only 5 champions league goals in 4 years for United. Rooney already got 3 on his debut. 5 UCL goals in 4 years is too poor for a number9 striker. How can you compare this to Rooney who has a high work rate and crucial goals in the tournament. Rooney has 27 in his 9 years in UCL, and 14 in the knockout stage.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/fa_cup/7990227.stm

Dimitar Berbatov’s penalty for Manchester United v Everton was “the worst penalty taken by an international footballer”

You may wish to refer to the video.

Though anyone can miss a penalty, some people just know when to rise to the occasion in crucial times. We have big games player. Men for big and crucial occasion.
[/b]
5. You said you provided highlights of Barbatov skills. I watched Berbatov, so I know his highlight. Even J.S. Park has some beautiful display of skills at some point in a match. Okocha for instance, has great foot work. But football is more than that.

6. As for the issue of Nistelrooy, you guys said he didn't have big signings playing with him in United. That was your excuse for his UCL failure and one EPL in 5 years. But he played along side expensive mates in Madrid, so what was his UCL achievements? At least Ronaldo has played 2 semi finals in 4 years. Mind you, if Ronaldo has converted his penalty against Bayern Munich, he should be more successful. So kudos to Rooney again who scores penalties to help the team through high hurdles.

7. Manchester United could have easily made around £55m in 2010, but united deemed it fit to retain him instead and also made him he 3rd highest paid. That is a man of caliber. Berbatov can never be worth as much as Rooney in the market. Never has it been, never will it be. The market determines the value of any product. Who will buy a 'fake' for a high amount when there is original? Does £30million market value resembles £4m?

8. Rooney taking a pay cut. That's not my argument or concern. Let the market forces play out.

9. Remember, there is what is called history book.

Wayne Rooney

Individual

▪ PFA Players' Player of the Year (1): 2009–10

▪ PFA Young Player of the Year (2): 2004–05, 2005–06

▪ PFA Fans' Player of the Year (2): 2005–06, 2009–10

▪ PFA Premier League Team of the Year (3): 2005–06, 2009–10, 2011–12

▪ FWA Footballer of the Year (1): 2009–10

▪ Goal of the Season (3): 2004–05, 2006–07, 2010–11

▪ Goal of the Month (6): October 2003, January 2005, April 2005, January 2007, March 2007, February 2011

▪ Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year (2): 2005–06, 2009–10

▪ BBC Young Sports Personality of the Year (1): 2002

▪ Bravo Award (1): 2003

▪ UEFA Euro 2004 Team of the Tournament

▪ FIFPro World Young Player of the Year (1): 2004–05

▪ Premier League Player of the Month (5): February 2005, December 2005, March 2006, October 2007, January 2010

▪ Barclays Player of the Year (1): 2009–10

▪ Premier League 20 Seasons Awards (1992–93 to 2011–12):

▪ Best Goal (vs. Manchester City, 12 February 2011)

▪ FIFA Club World Cup Golden Ball (1): 2008

▪ Golden Boot Landmark Award 20 (1): 2009–10

▪ FIFA/FIFPro World XI (1): 2011, and 5th best in the world.

This year he was again on FIFA top 20 again for he year 2012. He's is frequent on that list.

@Starboard, is the above your work? Go to page 227 and subsequent pages. You claim I copy and paste, is the above your job?

If I have any news to share from another source I must state the link instead of engaging in plagiarism and giving reports without credibility.

You are taking us back.

Fussbot: and dat makes ur continental trophies more dan dias?

U said clubs should be measured by dia european success

And I here I present 2 u liverpool dat have more continental trophies dan bayern ..so are they more successful dan bayern or not?

I cant cure your dementia, If you dont know how to put things in context. Liverpool is not competitive in Europe as we speak.

Its like Notthingham forest compared to Juventus

If Liverpool becomes competitive again they would be reckoned with

Until Man Utd becomes competitive in Europe they cant be compared to Bayern, Until man Utd wins 5 CL trophies then they would always watch us from afar

elampiro:

I am so happy. At least you cannot deny the facts I gave you to counter your 40 goals lie.

Also you denied that Rooney didn't have a greater number of assist. Now I countered it.

Forget about playing time and open play. A goal is a goal. Anyone that is good cannot be on the bench.

On your computation, why are you isolating one season for Berbatov? In 2008/9, he scored only 9 goals in 2542 minutes. 2010 he score only 12 from 2096 minutes, and in 2012 he scored 5 in 513 minutes.

2009
Rooney: 30 matches/2263 minutes 12 goals, 7 assist

Berba: 31 matches/2542 minutes 9 goals, 9 assist

2010
Rooney. 32/2723.... 26 goals,3 assists
Berba, 33/2096.... 12 goals, 5 assists
2011
Rooney. 28/2226..... 11 goals,11 assists
Berba, 33/2210......21 goals, 4 assists
2012
Rooney, 34/2838..... 27 goals, 5 assists
Berba, 12/513....... 7 goals, 0 assist

Also, the last time I checked, penalties are counted as goals in record books. Assists are also very important. So, Rooney has 102 goals + assist in four years.

Again, I never mentioned Berba can't use his head, except if nairaland censored my writing 'can't run with balls' to 'can't run with sphere'

Then you try to insult me by using a 3 year old as an example. Hahaha, I perfectly understand your levels now. Such is he case when one is frustrated. Like when Tyson resort to biting Hollyfield after defeat.

I gave you facts and sources to counter your claims about 40 penalties by Rooney whereas it was just 14. Your attempt to mislead people here has failed.

I really had a field day here today. Let me now go and crown it with Sunday evening outing. I will be here shortly again.

@Starboard, is the above your work? You claim I copy and paste, is the above your job?

If I have any news to share from another source I must state the link instead of engaging in plagiarism and giving reports without credibility.

coogar:

this is a retardëd logic.....
liverpool have 8 european trophies, bayern have 7. you told us with your mouth that teams from different leagues should be assessed by their european achievements...liverpool still won the big ears as at 2005 and played another final in 2007.
--------------
--------------

david moyes is a loonie....
eric steele and rene meulesteen gone? that's some wealth of experience money cannot buy being flushed down the toilet. moyes has started failing even before the season kicked off!

did he sack dem?no

They just can't work under him..wld u if u were rene?

His staffs have xperience too..and even if dey don't,rene and co 2 didn't bring it 4rm heaven they started working somewhere so it's just a matter of time 4 dem 2 have..(And yes!a club as big as man utd wil have 2 wait 4 dem 2 have..lol)dey have xprience rili...am only against phil neville

dayokanu:

I cant cure your dementia, If you dont know how to put things in context. Liverpool is not competitive in Europe as we speak.

Its like Notthingham forest compared to Juventus

If Liverpool becomes competitive again they would be reckoned with

Until Man Utd becomes competitive in Europe they cant be compared to Bayern, Until man Utd wins 5 CL trophies then they would always watch us from afar

lol..and it's naw about bin competitive in europe?am done with u confused soul..lwkm

StarBoard:
You give statistical analysis?
You must believe your own hype for real.
When you were copying-and-pasting every news item that came out from Daily mail about United, were you making sense?

For every one copy and paste club news, I have 5 more personal work. I don't want to liter here with old work otherwise I would have fetch more for you to see. I would rather give credence to my news by giving sources than giving fake or unverifiable news.

Now I know copy and paste pains into your marrow, I will be all the more louder with it.

@starboard, here is more copy and paste.

Real Madrid are ready to make Cristiano Ronaldo the ‘best paid player in the world’ in order to keep him away from a return to Manchester United.

The Portuguese’s future in Spain has been the subject of much speculation, and reports have linked the forward with a move back to United, as well as a big-money move to Paris Saint Germain.

However, Madrid president Florentino Perez insists he’s willing to break the bank if it means hanging on to his star striker.

"He told me in the summer that he was sad and I told him that we will do everything possible to make him happy because for us he’s the best player in the world,

"I think Cristiano is the best in the world, we want to build the Madrid of the future around him and I would like Cristiano to be the best paid player in the world. I don’t know if he has an offer from PSG."

Perez’s vocal desire to keep Ronaldo comes just days after Real lost out to Barcelona in the race for Neymar. (Source: metro.co.uk)

Fussbot: did he sack dem?no
They just can't work under him..wld u if u were rene?

His staffs have xperience too..and even if dey don't,rene and co 2 didn't bring it 4rm heaven they started working somewhere so it's just a matter of time 4 dem 2 have..(And yes!a club as big as man utd wil have 2 wait 4 dem 2 have..lol)dey have xprience rili...am only against phil neville

eric steele and rene meulesteen are gems - moyes must be very silly to let those guys go. de gea's improvement has been credited to steele. fergie leaves the training schedule to rene 4 times a week........moyes wants to replace him with phil neville who cannot even speak any other language than english. rene helped foreign players bed in quickly, he was well liked. anyone who watches MUTV on a daily basis would know rene is priceless, so is steele!

montelik:

Once again you are lying to yourself. So losing in the early rounds is no different than losing in the final. Stop deceiving yourself, elimination is not elimination. After all why have round 16, qf, sf if elimination is all the same.

I never said you didn't bounce back and respond. Neither did I say 99 somehow counts for double, so don't be raising strawmen trying to claim I hanging on 99. You can keep arguing class or whom is bigger with Coogar and Elampiro, I am not arguing that with you so face them.

My point was simple, losing in the finals is more meaningful than being knocked out in the earlier rounds. If you are insisting it is all the same then go on deceiving yourself.

I could care less to get involved in the megedefegede you are discussing with the others. So continue if you wish.

Loool this is getting hilarious! So if you where an athlete say a boxer at the Olympics you would rather lose out in the round of 16 than get to the gold medal bout cos you are afraid of the 'pain' of losing in the finals? Since its clear to all and sundry that Bayern own Man U head to head the strawman line of thinking is to bring up the 99 final
Elimination is elimination! But there's more honor in going out at a certain stage than at others! Its only clubs with lower standards that would say one hurts more than the other

montelik:

Once again you are lying to yourself. So losing in the early rounds is no different than losing in the final. Stop deceiving yourself, elimination is not elimination. After all why have round 16, qf, sf if elimination is all the same.

I never said you didn't bounce back and respond. Neither did I say 99 somehow counts for double, so don't be raising strawmen trying to claim I hanging on 99. You can keep arguing class or whom is bigger with Coogar and Elampiro, I am not arguing that with you so face them.

My point was simple, losing in the finals is more meaningful than being knocked out in the earlier rounds. If you are insisting it is all the same then go on deceiving yourself.

I could care less to get involved in the megedefegede you are discussing with the others. So continue if you wish.

Loool this is getting hilarious! So if you where an athlete say a boxer at the Olympics you would rather lose out in the round of 16 than get to the gold medal bout cos you are afraid of the 'pain' of losing in the finals? Since its clear to all and sundry that Bayern own Man U head to head the strawman line of thinking is to bring up the 99 final
Elimination is elimination! But there's more honor in going out at a certain stage than at others! Its only clubs with lower standards that would say one hurts more than the other

elampiro:

2010, the match you people won with Rafael's red dubious card.

What a smelly excuse! Blaming a sending off (well deserved by the way) for a red card that didn't directly lead to a goal

@tkb417
As Biggie go talk "And if you don't know now you know nigga"

debosky: This might be a personal opinion, but I hold the CL trophies won over 30 years ago in lower regard to those won more recently. Anything before 1980 should be classed differently for historical reasons IMO. It is far more difficult to win CL trophies in quick succession in the modern era than it has ever been.

In the modern era, Bayern and United have only won the CL twice - on that measure they are at par at best.

Too bad your personal opinion does not count in the record books! Italy won 2 of their 4 world cups before the 2nd World War! England are still boasting about the World Cup they won in 1966! Madrid won 6 Champions League titles between the late 50's to 60's. Go and tell them their wins don't count!
It smacks of bias to argue with such logic! A Chelsea fan could equally argue that only EPL titles won since 2005 count and they have 3 while yall have none! Can you see where this is going?

Scholes' midfield five

Paul Scholes was a master craftsman for Manchester United for almost 20 years - but which fellow central midfielders, past or present, does he admire? Here are his top five, and a video of them in action...

Bryan Robson "I loved watching him when I was growing up. He could defend and head the ball away, then get up the other end to score goals. He had everything and could do everything a midfield player has to do."

Patrick Vieira "He was in the Roy Keane mould, another great leader and a player who could do everything. Not quite as good as Roy, obviously! But he was a top midfielder and difficult to play against; big, strong, athletic, and he had the longest legs in the world!"

Roy Keane "Some people only seem to think about his aggressiveness and determination, the way he could drive a team on, but he also had unbelievable ability, for example in his passing to the forwards. He could score a goal as well."

Andres Iniésta "Iniesta and Xavi are both a joy to watch - but not to play against. Of the two, Iniesta probably goes past opponents a little bit more."

Xavi "He is a similar player to Iniesta, but Xavi controls the game more with his one-twos."

Source: official Man United site.

elampiro:

@Starboard, is the above your work? Go to page 227 and subsequent pages. You claim I copy and paste, is the above your job?

If I have any news to share from another source I must state the link instead of engaging in plagiarism and giving reports without credibility.

You are taking us back.

Muppet,
You know you can do better than this.
Get back to me when your game improves, instead of lifting from or directly plagiarising other people's intellectual work.
Get back to me when you revisit pages earlier than 227 where you were spamming the hell out of us just to get your post count up and make us believe you were intelligent.
Until then, i still am trying hard to notice you,demented gorilla.
Meanwhile let me answer credible peeps jare. . .comot for my front, smelly slowpoke.
\

A-40:

Too bad your personal opinion does not count in the record books! Italy won 2 of their 4 world cups before the 2nd World War! England are still boasting about the World Cup they won in 1966! Madrid won 6 Champions League titles between the late 50's to 60's. Go and tell them their wins don't count!
It smacks of bias to argue with such logic! A Chelsea fan could equally argue that only EPL titles won since 2005 count and they have 3 while yall have none! Can you see where this is going?

Please tell him o.
I hate it when fellas act like a certain part doesn't exist just to support their dim logic.
It's like saying that your great-grandfather didn't exist jut because you never met him. Is that sensible at all?

coogar:

it then begs the question - why aren't they good enough all of a sudden? didnt this same liverpool side win the champions league in 2005 or are we on the same page here?

Note that the time frame we're talking about is 22 years. So it's not like they just fell off.
They won the Champions League in 2005, but how many years have they participated in the same competition since?
Plus, you forget that times have changed. Liverpool had Forest,Villa as title challengers back in the 80s.Arsenal emerged late 80s. Forest is no longer in the top division and Villa have been reduced to just being content with staying in the elite ranks.
Liverpool aren't good enough, simple.

coogar:

it then means liverpool are better than bayern - period!!!!
you are discrediting celtic because they have not won in europe like forever and it was with the same mouth you were challenging debosky for discrediting bayern's achievements when there was no substitutions in the game of football. your ability to speak from the either side of the mouth is exemplary!!!!

Never in a million years can Liverpool be brought into this argument, simply because Liverpool haven't featured in the top competition for eons!
Celtic?I truly find that hilarious. Celtic won just ONE measly European title.We're talking about MULTIPLE title winners and you bring up Celtic? why not bring in Red Star Belgrade, Steau Bucharest and Hamburg and Aston Villa into the equation as well?They are all former European champions as well.
Then we should wipe off United's 1968 title and the said Celtic title of 1967 too, and let's see where your point leads us to. We should discredit Ajax's three titles too since they were around the same time as Bayern's triumphs, and we should nullify Liverpool's twoo titles in 77 and 78, and let's understand what this argument is really about.
If the issue is substitutions, then you;re only lending credence to the argument that it was arguably harder to win the title since there wasn't the luxury of substitutions.

coogar:
i did not start the argument, dayo did!
only a lunatic would compare the competitiveness in the premier league to the dross in bundesliga. anyhow you want to punt it, english clubs are better german clubs. if it's about number of league titles, celtic and porto are better than bayern. if it's about european titles, liverpool and milan are better than bayern. if it's about overall trophies won, united are better than bayern.....

so which is which?

Overall trophies that include about 16 charity/community shields,some of which were shared?
Please you can do better.
On a European front, United can't match Bayern yet,that much is known.
When Liverpool regain their status as part of Europe's elite by competing regularly in the champions league,we can then include them in the argument.