StarBoard:
Muppet,
You know you can do better than this.
Get back to me when your game improves, instead of lifting from or directly plagiarising other people's intellectual work.
Get back to me when you revisit pages earlier than 227 where you were spamming the hell out of us just to get your post count up and make us believe you were intelligent.
Until then, i still am trying hard to notice you,demented gorilla.
Meanwhile let me answer credible peeps jare. . .comot for my front, smelly slowpoke.

You are an obese chimpanzee, I have great work out there before page 227. When I was writing about De Gea's inability to easily deal with aerial balls was it from your head I wrote? Secondly, I didn't know there was a competition here to determine who has the highest posts and test intelligence. So is that what you do here?

elampiro:

1. ....and can you tell us what happened the last time Man United met Chelsea in the Champions league? Then also what happened between them in the EPL same year. You have said the officiating in UCL is better.

2. Can you mention with evidence the number of matches United were favoured with referees errors this season? b.Then compared with the number of matches they were disfavoured? C. Also get statistics of that of City , Arsenal and co, then we can return here and compare. This season alone, City have won from two offside goal and got a draw from an opponent good goal disallowed.

3. How have you forgotten that the last time Chelsea won EPL it has to be a point above United, if Drogba's clear offside goal had been disallowed, United would have been champions. Drogba was at least 2 yards offside when the ball was passed to him. The previous year it was a dubious penalty against Michael Carrick that earned Chelsea a 2-1 controversial victory, yet United won the league. In 2011 it was a controversial penalty against Smalling that sent Chelsea 2-1 up in the league and Luis ought to have been given a black card for several malicious tackles. But in same year it was a different ball game in the UCL. The last I checked, the times United had beaten Chelsea in the EPL, the scoreline were heavy. 3-0, 3-1, etc.

I wanted to ignore you, but now, I decided to teach you some football.

Starboard is the above your work too? From a much earlier page 208. There are countless more.

So in your head you see these things as competition and post counting.

StarBoard:
Monsieur,
You don't have to discredit teamswho have had a heritage just because you didn't follow football around that era.
Why not discard any European titles won before 1992 since the tournament was simply a home-and-away format with the finals in a neutral venue?
That way the great Milan side of the late 80s would lose two titles of their 7.
I agree it has gotten harder to win the title these days, but you cannot discard those feats back then just for that simple fact.

Sir,

I have not discarded the earlier wins, I have simply said they hold less weight in my opinion. You may disagree with this, but that is your prerogative.

My assertion is based on the level of competition available, not the format of the competition. In the early years, it's hard to dispute that the level of competition was much lower than it was from the 80's onward.

It's just like saying though numerically Liverpool is close to United in terms of league titles won, in the modern era (when it's been far more difficult to win titles) Liverpool is nowhere to be found with regard to league triumphs.

elampiro: My Opinion of players so far this season.

1.Rafael has been my best player this season. Despite lacking height, he is so balanced.

2. Evra is good while joining attack but mostly allow so much space on the far left-back which allows opponents to operate. He is easily beaten and joins centre back players in the box instead of picking his man in the wide.

3. Ferdinand and Vidic have the experience but lacking speed. The reason they play deep. Vidic is however highly valuable because of his aerial prowess. Will Vidic and Smalling work best? Or is it Vidic and Jones? What is the future like? Ferdinand is still great, but I don't think he is still a 'saviour'.

4. De Gea, a young and a potential world best, but I really get scared when those crosses fly into our box. Apart from the Madrid game in Spain, I haven't seen any exceptional save again. He made a good save against Chelsea in Old Trafford, but I felt he was badly positioned for Hazard's goal. He could also have done better in the second (equalizing) goal. Our overall play has been bad, but every good ball that beats the defence is as good as in the net.

5. Carrick is our best defensive midfielder, but he is behind players like Xavi, Alonso, Toure, Barry, Song, Bousqet, etc. Carrick is good while with the ball but poor off the ball. He is poor at tackling. In the whole, United is poor at marking, the players allow opponents too much space.

6. Cleverly and Anderson. Anderson is the only midfielder who can run with the ball and link well with the strikers. But he is below average in half of the matches. He needs to be more consistent, but how long will the coaching crew be patient with him.

Cleverly should play every game. He is always above average. But since March, he doesn't play well beyond the 55th minute. This was mostly evident in the games against Madrid, Chelsea and Sunderland too. However, these guys make us miss Fletcher.

6. Jones. He said said his best position is the centre back, and that he dislikes the midfield role. Ferguson desire to retain players who are defence minded and have helped in the clean slates recently. This is what is keeping Jones in the midfield, otherwise he lacks creativity there. He was manificient in the right back against Stoke City. With experience, he will do well in the centre too. A John Terry in the making.

7. Giggs. Giggs started the season very poorly. He and scholes made us lost our first two matches (Everton and Totteham) with the lack of speed to match opponents in the midfield. But Giggs changed some games for us later on in the season. When Young, Valencia and Nani were poor in the flanks, Giggs brought the wide play that made Ferguson to jettison the much criticized Diamond formation. In some matches, he exhibited the energy of a teenager as we saw in the matches around Christmas and the Madrid game. He wasn't our problem yesterday against West Ham. After all when he came, United didn't concede, instead the attacking was more and the equalizer came. Against City, he gave away the first City goal, but I still don't think he did badly. I will like Giggs to retire to enable the young players mature quickly. But, the average performance of these young lads always make SAF to remember Giggs and Scholes. The solution, retire Giggs and Scholes, sell the average lads like Anderson, Welbeck, Kagawa and co. United won UCL in 2008 when we had 'real strong men' like Owen Hagreaves operating from the defensive midfield, and sometimes from the right flank. Now sell all the average guys and buy real men from Germany, Spain and South America. If Fletcher had been fit, Scholes would never have returned, and Giggs and Jones wouldn't be getting midfield roles. Deploying Giggs to midfield is a game change I think even SAF didn't envisage.

8. Nani, Valencia and Young. I can't ever support Nani to go. He alone is capable of what he does. He has two great feet, can play from right, Left and Centre. He can shoot accurately with both feet and sometimes head in the box. His most important quality is ability to twist a defenders waist at a 'short notice' and opened up the defence. He can also run with the ball. Like Rooney, this has been his worst season. Perhaps, the arrival of Kagawa and RVP have caused SAF to unnecessarily not have faith in Nani and to some degree, Rooney too. The team rotation has dealt a big deal to the enthusiasm of Nani and Rooney.

Nani has always played his best football when Valencia is injured or/and Rooney out and he knows that he has to carry the team over several matches without his place being threatened. The problem has always been that he too soon get relegated to the bench as soon as Valencia or Young is fit even when he has been playing well. Now, with the presence of RVP and Kagawa Nani's woes have compounded. I want him retained. That's all.

Ashley Young. He will not end his career at United. I like him though for bringing good options.

Valencia should be retained for next season, we need to see if he can be his old self again. If Valencia cannot get space to run and get behind the opponents defence line, he is finished in the game. He can't play against a defence that plays deep and tightly packed. That's where Nani is more versatile. Valencia is however useful because he can play the number two position too. But we have Smalling and Jones also in the position.

9. Rooney and RVP. Every club wants them. SAF should motivate Rooney more.

10. Welbeck, Chicharito. If this is the way Welbeck is going to play, the ealier we ship him like Chelsea did to Sturridge, the better. He is causing selection problems.

Chicharito, he can't play but he scores. His goals are needed. But if we get to break the bank and get Falcao, then I can join in saying good bye to him for his own sake. But SAF can't afford Falcao. Chicha is just like Inzhagi. 18 box players.

Finally, the years we last dominated the midfield were when we had Owen Hargreaves and Flectcher fit. We need such agile, energetic and mobile midfielders. Oshea will do better than many of the supposed midfielders and make shift midfielders we had today. Oshea was an average player, but he probably would have helped us last season and this. We need to move forward, let SAF get capable midfielder, and I am sure he knows where to look at.

@starboard, is the above your work, from page 188? Mr Argument.

In your head everything in life is competition including number of posts in a forum. Na wa!!!

On this thread, I am just doing my own and giving objective assessment of topics, whether anyone else is intelligent or whatever is never my business. I am not competing with anyone here. I don't know where this talk of intelligence and number of post is coming from. This is shocking!!! It is unhealthy!!!

A-40:

Too bad your personal opinion does not count in the record books! Italy won 2 of their 4 world cups before the 2nd World War! England are still boasting about the World Cup they won in 1966! Madrid won 6 Champions League titles between the late 50's to 60's. Go and tell them their wins don't count!

Maybe you need to re-learn how to read - I said I hold those won earlier in lesser regard, not that they don't count.

Besides, Real Madrid have won it three times in the modern era - thrice in 5 seasons - so their CL cred isn't solely dependent on ancient history.

As for 1966, no one takes England seriously in international football for precisely that reason - their only win was donkey years ago when they arguably rigged the outcome at home.

In contrast, Italy's wins in the modern era is what confirms their credibility, not simply that they won it ages ago.

It smacks of bias to argue with such logic! A Chelsea fan could equally argue that only EPL titles won since 2005 count and they have 3 while yall have none! Can you see where this is going?

Hardly - there's little/no justification for a cut off at 2005. However, it is clear to anyone that the earlier years of the CL were far less competitive than they are now.

I don't think there should be any cut offs as to when to count titles. All titles are relative to their era so don't see why you shouldn't count some and count others.

Report has it that Man United has made an official approach for Fabregas. Anderson might go.

Monaco and Arsenal are reported to want Nani. I can't ever want Nani go. Won't want to see him play anywhere else.

StarBoard:
Note that the time frame we're talking about is 22 years. So it's not like they just fell off.
They won the Champions League in 2005, but how many years have they participated in the same competition since?

what time frame are we talking about? liverpool won the champions league in 2005 and are runners up in 2007. the achievement is better than what real madrid, lyon, schalke, arsenal, etc have managed in the last 20 years. appearance counts for nothing - what you do when you appear is the crux.

Plus, you forget that times have changed. Liverpool had Forest,Villa as title challengers back in the 80s.Arsenal emerged late 80s. Forest is no longer in the top division and Villa have been reduced to just being content with staying in the elite ranks. Liverpool aren't good enough, simple.

they are very good - they still have their history, pride and glory. liverpool isn't good enough is like saying madrid are not good enough. madrid last won it in 2002(11 years ago).

Never in a million years can Liverpool be brought into this argument, simply because Liverpool haven't featured in the top competition for eons!

who cares if they haven't featured in it? they won it in 2005(under the new format), long before chelsea and inter did. they are good enough. i would still trust liverpool to represent england better than city.

Celtic?I truly find that hilarious. Celtic won just ONE measly European title.We're talking about MULTIPLE title winners and you bring up Celtic? why not bring in Red Star Belgrade, Steau Bucharest and Hamburg and Aston Villa into the equation as well?They are all former European champions as well.

i am not sure you are following this argument - i brought celtic into it cos dayo was counting the number of league titles they have won to prove superiority....then i said celtic have won their league 44 times. does that make them better than bayern overall?

Then we should wipe off United's 1968 title and the said Celtic title of 1967 too, and let's see where your point leads us to. We should discredit Ajax's three titles too since they were around the same time as Bayern's triumphs, and we should nullify Liverpool's twoo titles in 77 and 78, and let's understand what this argument is really about.

debosky & coogar have already wiped off those titles - you are the only one still stuck in the past. we have already told you it's even steven between bayern and man utd as they have both won it twice since the modern era.

If the issue is substitutions, then you;re only lending credence to the argument that it was arguably harder to win the title since there wasn't the luxury of substitutions.

it wasn't harder - no subs applied across the board. it doesn't put one team above the other. it's still a level playing field. 11-man bayern should still beat 11-man champions of san marino, subs or no subs!!!

Overall trophies that include about 16 charity/community shields,some of which were shared?
Please you can do better.

you have to win your league/FA cup to play the charity shield. that bayern lost more in these competitions in germany should not rubbish united's achievement! they have had their own versions of league cup, transformed to fuji cup and whatever name they are calling it now...bayern were horribly shyte in these games.

dayo knew he couldn't compete so he left out the competitions where bayern were horribly weak....they have DFB pokal, DFL-supercup and DFBLiga-pokal too. let him add it to their overall title haul, our league cup existed before bundesliga was formed, i cannot rubbish the competition.

On a European front, United can't match Bayern yet,that much is known. When Liverpool regain their status as part of Europe's elite by competing regularly in the champions league,we can then include them in the argument.

but united have been a top seed for eons now, where are bayern? as far as i am concerned, united and bayern are on the same pedestal in europe in the modern era. the score is 2-2. united won their 2nd CL in the modern era 5 years before bayern did. if you look hard enough, bayern are playing catch-up, not united!!!

Mr_TA: I don't think there should be any cut offs as to when to count titles. All titles are relative to their era so don't see why you shouldn't count some and count others.

I never implied not counting all of them - what I was alluding to was the current subject of debate - which is the better club?

Do we judge that with an undue weighting on ancient achievements or do we place more emphasis on achievements within a reasonably competitive era?

DK is being inconsistent in this regard - he doesn't want to accept that, based on his 'all trophies' theory, Liverpool is a better club. But he wants to count the total European trophy haul to claim Bayern is better than United.

debosky:

I never implied not counting all of them - what I was alluding to was the current subject of debate - which is the better club?

Do we judge that with an undue weighting on ancient achievements or do we place more emphasis on achievements within a reasonably competitive era?

DK is being inconsistent in this regard - he doesn't want to accept that, based on his 'all trophies' theory, Liverpool is a better club. But he wants to count the total European trophy haul to claim Bayern is better than United.

don't mind the tool......
"bayern have 7 european titles, they would have won 40 english titles if they were an english side" only a goat would come up with that rubbish. the liverpool example sent him back to the pits he crawled out from.

elampiro: Report has it that Man United has made an official approach for Fabregas. Anderson might go.

Monaco and Arsenal are reported to want Nani. I can't ever want Nani go. Won't want to see him play anywhere else.

I'm 100% sure this is complete BS about Fabregas.

Mr_TA:
I'm 100% sure this is complete BS about Fabregas.

moyes should hurry up and sign all his players in the next 2 weeks so we can take the newbies to preseason. why is he slow? he's replacing backroom when he should be in the market targeting midfielders......

Come on, he hasn't even officially joined the club yet. He's making the right moves first as he has to sort out the coaching staff first. Them the current squad, who's leaving or staying then he can access new signings. It's always very difficult to sort out all transfers early. Infact it almost never happens unless you're signing just one player. And even that is tricky if its a big player.

On a different note, it turns out Bayern are now the most valuable brand in world football.

coogar:

moyes should hurry up and sign all his players in the next 2 weeks so we can take the newbies to preseason. why is he slow? he's replacing backroom when he should be in the market targeting midfielders......

unlikely. he will likely have to overlook the reports on players we were targetting prior to his signing, get second opinions from his own trrusted people and more information from sources he trusts. only players we can move on now will be everton players he wants to bring in and players he would have been interested in signing at everton, who still fit into his plans considering the present united squad.

As long as he knows he should be shopping at Harrods now. No more bargain shopping at tesco.

Mr_TA: On a different note, it turns out Bayern are now the most valuable brand in world football.

I wonder what elampiro has to say to that
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2332596/Bayern-Munich-overtake-Manchester-United-world-footballs-valuable-brand.html

debosky:

I never implied not counting all of them - what I was alluding to was the current subject of debate - which is the better club?

Do we judge that with an undue weighting on ancient achievements or do we place more emphasis on achievements within a reasonably

Based on your competitive era argument which is the better national team italy or Brazil

You mean the titles won by Pele Cryuff George best beckenbauer are now irrelevant so how many years would it take for the titles won by Ronaldo and Zidane to be discarded

Mr_TA: On a different note, it turns out Bayern are now the most valuable brand in world football.

Hehehehehe Arabanko

debosky:

Maybe you need to re-learn how to read - I said I hold those won earlier in lesser regard, not that they don't count.

Lesser regard by who? The fans? Players? Or Debosky?

debosky:
Besides, Real Madrid have won it three times in the modern era - thrice in 5 seasons - so their CL cred isn't solely dependent on ancient history.

Neither is Bayern's but would you say because of that Madrid is 3 to 2 against Utd in UCL wins!

debosky:
As for 1966, no one takes England seriously in international football for precisely that reason - their only win was donkey years ago when they arguably rigged the outcome at home.

In contrast, Italy's wins in the modern era is what confirms their credibility, not simply that they won it ages ago.

But inspite of that its still in the records that they have won it 4 times! Arguing whether or not it was won in the modern era is hair splitting really cos the argument is not borne out of objectivity

debosky:
Hardly - there's little/no justification for a cut off at 2005. However, it is clear to anyone that the earlier years of the CL were far less competitive than they are now.

Nonsense! Did you think of that when you made your cut from the 80's? Say I was born in 2000 and started following football 07 or 08! Where would I cut from?
Competitiveness is always subjective! To you its more competitive to the next man the competition has been watered down cos you don't have to be a Champion to get in anymore

StarBoard:

Please tell him o.
I hate it when fellas act like a certain part doesn't exist just to support their dim logic.
It's like saying that your great-grandfather didn't exist jut because you never met him. Is that sensible at all?

Its funny really! How can you do away with a certain era just because it doesn't suit your sensibilities
What I find absolutely hilarious is that this example can also be used against him! For instance his beloved Arsenal won 7 of their 13 league titles before 1960 can we say those titles are less regarded?
When we say Bayern is superior to Utd its not something Utd should take personal! The records are evident to all and sundry! Bayern also have their superiors (Milan,Madrid) everything get hierarchy so the aim should be to match them eventually rather than denying gospel truths

Mr_TA: On a different note, it turns out Bayern are now the most valuable brand in world football.

this research is garbage - what criteria did this dodgy organisation use? man utd brand as at january was $3 billion. united at $800m? these tools must be crazy!!!

turns out united are twice the value of bayern and then more......bayern? old trafford alone cost more than bayern munich.

Forbes we know, Deloitte we know as well, dafuq is BrandFinance?

To the garbage with their fraudulent methodology!

nitlad: Forbes we know, Deloitte we know as well, dafuq is BrandFinance?

To the garbage with their fraudulent methodology!

they even had stoke fc as the 41st most valuable team. stoke above benfica? lolololol, this is laughable. the tool that made the research in his explanation said that bayern thrashing barcelona 7-0 made their brand valuable - what a joke!!!!!

brandfinance ko, brandeconomics ni - fraudulent fools!

dayokanu:

I wonder what elampiro has to say to that
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2332596/Bayern-Munich-overtake-Manchester-United-world-footballs-valuable-brand.html

Since when 860milliom become more valuable than 3.17billion. Manchester United current worth is $3.17billion, United and Madrid are not in the million category.

You have to look at the parameters being considered, and exactly what they are saying. BrandFinance rated without considering a number of factors, top of them is the part of the ownership the Glaziers put to the public, i.e the value of the club in the hands of investors. The value of part of Manchester United in the NYSE alone is in the billions.

In summary, Forbes look at real money worth, while BrandFinance use metrics such as number of titles won in Europe etc, Royalties and all that which are not money at all. While Forbes rating cannot be overly overstated or understated, Brandfinnace rating can be swung to which ever way the rate committee wants to go. The real values that have credibility there in BrandFinance are the players value and revenue from Eufa based on UCL achievement this term. How can you use UCLs won many years ago in which the income has been used to buy players or invested ever since as part of your money worth?

coogar:

this research is garbage - what criteria did this dodgy organisation use? man utd brand as at january was $3 billion. united at $800m? these tools must be crazy!!!

turns out united are twice the value of bayern and then more......bayern? old trafford alone cost more than bayern munich.

Exactly.

nitlad: Forbes we know, Deloitte we know as well, dafuq is BrandFinance?

To the garbage with their fraudulent methodology!

Exactly.

May be they want to see how they can be allowed into the NYSE.

A-40:

Lesser regard by who? The fans? Players? Or Debosky?

If you can read and comprehend, you'll understand who 'I' refers to.

Neither is Bayern's but would you say because of that Madrid is 3 to 2 against Utd in UCL wins!

In the modern era, yes I would say so.

But inspite of that its still in the records that they have won it 4 times! Arguing whether or not it was won in the modern era is hair splitting really cos the argument is not borne out of objectivity

Of course it is - what is not objective about acknowledging that club football was less competitive in the 70's than it was in the 90's?

Nonsense! Did you think of that when you made your cut from the 80's? Say I was born in 2000 and started following football 07 or 08! Where would I cut from?

I didn't make a cut based on my age. My 'cut' was based on my evaluation of the competitiveness of the competition. This is borne out by the fact that since the 80's you haven't had instances of a single club winning 3 CL titles in a row.

Competitiveness is always subjective! To you its more competitive to the next man the competition has been watered down cos you don't have to be a Champion to get in anymore

I prefaced my post with my personal opinion. Or don't you understand what personal opinion means?

If you don't like it, say so and move on. I'm not forcing you or anyone else to accept my view.

For instance his beloved Arsenal won 7 of their 13 league titles before 1960 can we say those titles are less regarded?

You are free to say so - I consider them less regarded compared to winning the title at Anfield in 89, or winning the title against an all conquering Man Utd at OT, or winning the league unbeaten.

elampiro:

You are an obese chimpanzee, I have great work out there before page 227. When I was writing about De Gea's inability to easily deal with aerial balls was it from your head I wrote? Secondly, I didn't know there was a competition here to determine who has the highest posts and test intelligence. So is that what you do here?

Copy and paste.
Why not bring out a page supporting your view from goal.com,dailymail.co.uk/sport or telegraph.com?
Try harder man.
Weak a$$ lines you got there, plagiarism genius.

elampiro:

Starboard is the above your work too? From a much earlier page 208. There are countless more.

So in your head you see these things as competition and post counting.

Genius at work.
Peeps on this thread already dissected this incident YEARS ago.
You're not telling us anything new, both when you try to be original and when you lift off goal.com
So you're still very shallow and imbecilic.

elampiro: Report has it that Man United has made an official approach for Fabregas. Anderson might go.

Monaco and Arsenal are reported to want Nani. I can't ever want Nani go. Won't want to see him play anywhere else.

And this Ninny wants us to believe he is smart when he can't even get his tenses and phrases in order.
The only time you make sense is when you lift off people's work.

coogar: dayo knew he couldn't compete so he left out the competitions where bayern were horribly weak....they have DFB pokal, DFL-supercup and DFBLiga-pokal too. let him add it to their overall title haul, our league cup existed before bundesliga was formed, i cannot rubbish the competition.

The defunct Fuji Cup was played for 10yrs Bayern are the record winner winning it 5 times

The DFL Supercup Bayern are the record winner winning that another 5 times

The DFB Ligapokal was played for 10yrs Bayern are the record winner winning it 6 times

By the time we add 15 DFB Pokal, 23 league titles, 5 Fuji Cup, 5 DFL Super cup, 6 DFB Ligapokal, 5 Champions league 1 Cup Winners, 1 UEFA Cup, 2 Intercontinental cups

That makes 63 titles Now show us what Man Utd has since we are now adding irrelevant trophies