benalvino:

you ask


i said equal, same amount... to go further same quantity.

Yahshua said the FATHER was GREATER than he, so they can not be equal in that sense.

benalvino:

I mean equal same amount

So, you believe that YOUR "God" and that YOUR "Jesus" are the same amount, right?

benalvino:
So should you praise and honor the son equally?

All depends on what you mean by saying 'equally'? Now, when it comes to honoring the SON equally as if he were his own FATHER, no, this is not what is meant!

benalvino:

he has gotten to a dead end, instead of him to turn around he is trying to pass through the walls. i dont even think a nursery school child will accept what he says

Even a simpleton nursery school child would not accept the the belief that one can be their own father and one can be their own son! That would make you something less than a simpleton nursery school child!

Emusan:

Imagine maybe he has forgotten he made that statement By=through.

He even capitalised the combine words FIRSTBORN but failed to ask himself, is YAHWEH or Yeshua the firstborn? because Who infront of verse 15 indicates that the person who is the image of invisible God seperated by a coma(,) is also the FIRSTBORN.

Following is exactly what I had said previously:

"FATHER Yahweh's SON is the FIRSTBORN of all creation, not FATHER Yahweh!

FATHER Yahweh is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM, not His SON Yahshua!

Yahshua is the FIRSTBORN from the dead, not his and our FATHER Yahweh."

Well, it it is obvious that I did not fail to make known that Yahshua is the firstborn and in turn it is quite obvious that you are a liar!

FYI, your remarks concerning punctuation are moot, since there is no punctuation in Hebrew and Greek.

benalvino:

flipflop... see what you said before...

I have always believed that the Messiah did not pre-exist his birth as an actual being! No flip-flop here! It seems that you just enjoy twisting and perverting the words of others who oppose your false doctrine just as you do the Scripture (FATHER Yahweh's inspired prophetic word) to your own destruction!

benalvino:

you said he never existed before... now all of a sudden he existed just as Oneness or jesus only pentecostal teaches... i am saying this because you have admitted that Jesus preexist

No, I do not believe that the Messiah pre-existed just as Oneness or jesus only pentecostal teaches. They believe that the Messiah pre-existed his birth and I do not.

benalvino:

hahahaha... I am beginning to think english is fraud thanks to you frank hahahahahha... see the transition of personality but you made another yeye out of your self...
By=through so who created everything through the father? so now the father is the media in which everything was created contradicting every other verse... hahahahahaahaha

how did you know when to switch to the father and to the son? lol
15 says he[jesus] that is the subject of the verse... who the verse is talking about...
for by him which is connected to the He that starts the verse and not connected to the invisible God... lmao you people are seeing twisted colossians 1;15 from frank?

Your responses are becoming unintelligible now! Are you a foreigner or are you simply an uneducated?

benalvino:

lol now you have read from oneness pentecostal..... hahahahaha... people who teach modalism you keep digging the internet and taking the wrong thing... But you have just admitted he preexist anyhow... but in the wrong way. lol... the word became flesh in john and the word was God in john... in phil the word was in the form God and then took on human flesh human likeness...

the universe was created through the word... in hebrew and colossians it was created through the son therefore word = son.
the word was in the the beginning... you can push the beginning back as much as you want but the bible says the word was there... now in colossians bible says he was before all things... meaning the word = Jesus because he was in the beginning.
YAHWEH created everything for him self... Everything was created for Jesus through Jesus...

oneness says the father is jesus and jesus is the holy spirit and that is from where you are getting this he was in the plan of the father... lol

now you agreed in the wrong way that jesus preexisted... hahahahaaha

I do not get that the Messiah was in the plan of Yahweh from the Oneness Pentecostal religion. All thoughout History FATHER Yahweh's pepole have been in waiting on the promised COMING Messiah that had not been raised up through the seed of Dawid yet and who had not yet come into existence.

benalvino:

lmao... can you people see how this guy just made a joke out of him self? lets look at colossians
He{Jesus} is the image of the invisible God{Father}, the firstborn of all creation{frank is this talking about Jesus or the father?}. 16For by Him{Jesus} all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17[b]He[/b]{Jesus} is before all things, and in Him{Jesus} all things hold together

now we have seen how you completely take the bible and turn it up side down... first phil 2:6 then John 1:1-14 now colossians and even Hebrew 1:2. how is it in reference to the father? how can you just blindly say that? you and frosbel are 2 people that is here to confuse trinitarians and unitarians plus Jehovah's witness... with this statement you have put your self in i know nothing about the bible category...

And i ask you how do you honor YAHWAH... you refuse to answer... do you not Honor him?

Who [FATHER Yahweh's SON Yahshua] is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE Mighty One [FATHER Yahweh], the FIRSTBORN of all creation: For by Him (FATHER Yahweh] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him [FATHER Yahweh], and for Him [FATHER Yahweh]: And He [FATHER Yahweh] is before all things, and by Him [FATHER Yahweh] all things are held together. And he [Yahshua] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

FATHER Yahweh's SON is the FIRSTBORN of all creation, not FATHER Yahweh!

FATHER Yahweh is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM, not His SON Yahshua!

Yahshua is the FIRSTBORN from the daed, not his and our FATHER Yahweh.

Yahshua is the FIRSTBORN of all creation in that he is the first fruit of the "first fruits" of the resurrection or the FIRSTBORN from the dead. FATHER Yahweh is still in the creation process and Yahshua being the FIRSTBORN into his and our FATHER Yahweh's NEW Creation of a NEW heavens and a NEW earth.

hisblud: @frank ok

give scripture and what do you mean by "actual being"? Do care to share.

Your belief is that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an "actual being" opposed to my belief that Yahshua only pre-existed in FATHER Yahweh's plan as the promised coming Messiah. The true worshippers of FATHER Yahweh and the prophets of old did not believe that the Messiah presently existed, but were in waiting for the Messaih to be raised up through the seed of Dawid. The COMING of the Messaih has always beenj a future event to the true worshippers of FATHER Yahweh.

benalvino: you know the verse that says he exist in the form or nature God before he became flesh... verse you said you wont accept from the bible...

There is no "verse [in Scripture] that says he exist in the form or nature God before he became flesh."

hisblud:

^^^
ben i lol laf so i cant honored, praised, worshipped, etc. YASHUA in MANY ways, such as in obedience, song, communion, etc.

I never said that you could not! You asked about honor and praise to the FATHER specifically, not the SON!

benalvino:

go up and look... How is the father to be honored?
how is he to be praised?

why did colossians says Jesus was before all things when he didnt exist according to you.

Colossians 1:16 is in reference to FATHER Yahweh and not to His SON Yahshua.

FATHER Yahweh can be honored, praised, worshipped, etc. in MANY ways, such as in obedience, song, communion, etc.
Get it straight! I did not say that Yahshua did no exist. I said that he did not pre-exist his birth as an actual being.

benalvino:

address my question then

What question?

benalvino:

lol... now it is my words you are twisting!!! did i ever said it is written in the bible like that? or am simply explaining to you that he was in a nature/form before he became man... My point is something that didnt exist before cant be something before he was born...

phil 2:5-10 says he was in the form God but gave it up and become man... even as the bible is telling you that you are still arguing with it... this is where i say you are saying the bible is lying.

Edit: i read what i said again... but yes it was an explanation... i was suppose you use teach instead of says. anyhow you still get my point.

No, I am not twisting your words! You specifically SAID "THE BIBLE SAYS" Jesus was in the form God before he uses Mary to enter the world." When you say "THE BIBLE SAYS" something, you had better give an exact quote from one of the MANY Scripture translations of what it ACTUALLY SAYS, since Scripture teaches within itself that we are not to add on to nor take away from the prophecy of Scripture. Philippians 2:5-10 also doe not SAY "he was in the form God but gave it up and become man." Nowhere in ANY translation of Scripture does it EVER teach such foolishness!

benalvino:

he has twisted till he can twist no more... so that side is done he cant go further with my question since he refuse to agree that the bible says Jesus was in the form God before he uses Mary to enter the world.

Nowhere in ANY translation of Scripture will you EVER find it SAID "Jesus was in the form God before he uses Mary to enter the world."

benalvino:

but both were worshiped equally...
so let me ask you... How do you Honor YAHWEH?
How do you praise and adore YAHWEH?

They were not "worshipped" equally as I had just made known. Father Yahweh is "worshipped as our Heavenly Creator and His SON Yahshua is "worshipped" as FATHER Yahweh's anointed and appointed King.

benalvino:
nope... but the bible says you shall not worship other Gods... if Jesus is just a man then it is idolatry

"THE MAN" Yahhsua is most certainly worthy of "worship" as FATHER Yahweh's anointed and appointed Messianic King, but we are not to "worship" "THE MAN" Yahshua as his and our Heavenly Father and Creator Yahweh.

Since Yahshua is not "God", one would not be "worshipping" a "God."

Word Studies On Worship
(shachah, latreuo, and proskuneo)
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/worship.html

THE MAN, YAHSHUA
Revised 3/12/12
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/760190434/the-man-yahshua

benalvino:

you must honor the son and the father equally... and every creature will worship the father and son together
is that not idolatry?

Our Heavenly FATHER and Creator and His SON are idols?

benalvino:

When I say he twist the bible to cook up meaning this is exactly what i have been seeing... in phil 2:6 on ward he took only the was made in the likeness of men... and throw away what he was before... when i ask him question based on that he said it is a silly question... then i showed him the verses he throw away as a reason the question is coming, and till now he did not respond.
What form or nature was Jesus before he was made the likeness of men?



compare the bold with this verse he is talking about

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men

Frank words don't go with the bible... in fact it says the bible is lying because the bible says he exist as God before he was made man... Frank says he was made man but never existed.

It would be you who is lieing, since nowhere in ANY Scripture translation will you ever find it said about Messiah "he exist as God before he was made man." You also lied in saying "Frank says he was made man but never existed." I have never made such a foolish statement as this! Where did you learn to read?

benalvino:

I believe he must be in his pool of confusion swimming at the moment

I really can not see anything confusing about my simply confessing and believing that Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh. That would be you who is swimming in the confusing and deceptive so-called "HOLEy Trinity" doctrine!

benalvino:

hahahaha what figure of speech i beg you? how is a figure of speech?

but isaiah elijah and many more were the spokeman of YAHWEH before JESUS... so If the Word did not Literally become Flesh how come the Bible says through his son he made the Universe?
you can twist and turn all you want but you cant run from this... you forget to add hebrew 1:3 that says he created the Universe through the son... you see how you are trying to cook meaning out of the bible?

again was the universe made through the son? Yes or no please

Again you have posed a question that I have previously answered. The Universe was made By FATHER Yahweh "BECAUSE OF", "ON ACCOUNT OF" or "FOR" His SON Yahshua, not "BY" or "THROUGH" him.

The Word "By"

Yahweh created the world "by" (through) the Son (Heb. 1:2 KJV). The Diaglott says Yahweh created the world "on account of" the Son. Any one of the three ["by," "through," or "on account of"] is, technically, a correct translation of the Greek word Di' or Dia. Dia is in the KJV translated several ways, but usually is translated as follows:

By - 243 times; through - 100 times; for - 106 times; because - 24 times; because of - 29 times; for the sake of - 32 times; etc.

The King's Men did not translate the WORD di' incorrectly in Heb. 1:2. By or through is a correct translation of the WORD, but ONLY IF THE MESSAGE in the sentence agrees, or allows it. But alas, in this case the message of the sentence will not allow this translation.

Reason #1. Heb 1:2a reveals Yahshua to be the heir of what was created.

Reason #2. More than 100 Scriptures show it was Yahweh (not Yahshua) who created the heavens and the earth. Heb. 1:2 must agree with the 100 other Scriptures. For a list of these [ask for] our paper, "Who Is the Creator?" ( http://www.halleluyah.org/ContactUs.html ).

For these reasons, the sentence in Heb. 1:2b must have
originally read like the Diaglott reads today, Yahweh "... in the last of these days spoke to us by a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, ON ACCOUNT OF whom also he constituted the ages; ..."

Another acceptable translation would be, "... a Son, FOR whom he created the world."

Many times the King James Version as well as more modern versions translate dia as "for," "because of," "therefore" [meaning "for this reason"]. For a more detailed layout of the word di' (dia), [see] for our [study], "Hebrews 1:2 - Berry." ( http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/759287296/hebrews-12 0.

This is not to say the the King's Men purposely mistranslated, nor is this to say they were dishonest. Not at all. On the contrary, they no doubt delivered what they believed to be the correct translation of Heb. 1:2. We must realize, however, that all of the King's Men believed the doctrine of the Trinity (one is three, and three are one). Believing this, they saw no contradiction between this Scripture (as they translated it) and the 100 Scriptures which show that Yahweh the Father is truly and personally the Creator of the heaven and earth.
Excerpt from: http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

benalvino:

you will drown in denial soon... keep explaining rubbish and dodge the other questions i ask you. even the phil 2:6 you have not touch... what form was Jesus before he became in the likeness of men?

add it to the questions asked in the post you replied.

I have addressed all of your questions. Just because you do not agree with how I have answered in accordance with your belief does not mean that I have not answered you. Some of your questions are juist plain silly! For example, you asked me "what form was Jesus before he became in the likeness of men." when this is your belief, not mine, since I do not believe that he even existed before he was conceived in Mariam's womb.

benalvino:

how can one had glory with someone before the world was and not be existing before the world was... this and other verses has shown that Jesus was before the world was...

you still cant touch John 1:3... you said the word Became flesh who is the flesh the word became?
in colossins you said not everything was created by him despite it says all things... another lie from you. twisting the bible...

then i show you hebrew 1:3 where it says the universe was created through the son... If he exist when Mary gave birth to him does it mean mary exist before the universe was made?

you are taking the bible and translate lies out of it... it is clear and your eyes are holding, funny enough you are not trying to open them.

Can not a son be esteemed by their father before he is born or has come into existence? He certainly can! That being said, one can clearly see that our Heavenly FATHER Yahweh can also have esteem for His SON before the world was, before he was born or came into existence.

Yahshua was not LITERALLY FATHER Yahweh word and FATHER Yahweh's word did not LITERALLY become flesh. Theses are figures of speech meaning that Yahshua is the spokesman of his and our FATHER Yahweh's word in this last time period as Hebrews 1:1-2 makes perfectly clear. This is also made known in Revelation in that Father Yahweh's word is figuratively spoken of as a sharp two-edged sword that proceeds out of his mouth. This truth is made known by Yahshua himself in what he says as follows:

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak (Yahchanan [John] 12:49).

This is just another verse of Scripture that proves the "Jesus IS God!" doctrine to be false!

benalvino:

the bold is a total lie. hahaha you no they shame? lmao

The esteem that Yahshua had with his and our FATHER Yahweh before the world was, not the pre-xistence that he had with his and our FATHER Yahweh before the world was. One can have esteem with another without them being present.

Me know they not the shame!

" And now, O FATHER, esteem YOU me with YOUR OWN SELF with the esteem which I had with YOU before the world was."

There are obviously two separate beings spoken of here. The FATHER and His SON! The SON would be the one communicating and his FATHER would be on the receiving end of this communication. Simple as tjhat!

benalvino:


Hebrews 1:3
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Yes, FATHER Yahweh GAVE His SON ALL power (authority) in heaven and in the earth and FATHER Yahweh's word that He communicated to His SON on earth sure is powerful! This is just another single verse of Scripture that proves the "Jesus IS God!" doctrine to be false!

benalvino:

grab a pop corn sit back and watch the analysis he will bring... just watch.

Analyse this!

Is this what you IMAGine your "God" to be?
[img]http://rokus01.files./2011/05/triune-mercury-of-soissons.jpg[/img]
Since a Triune God has three heads, how many legs and arms does it have?

Emusan:

Just because you want to prove Trinity wrong you can open your mouth and spew this statement?

God Himself will have mercy on us.

John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

If Jesus can say He had glory with God before the world begins, does He pre-exist His birth or not?

Just let us be careful the way we handle the word of God.

Shalom!

I really have no need to prove the so-called "Holy Trinity" doctrine wrong, since it is simply never taught or explained in Scripture as Trinitarian scholars explain this foolishness.

When Yahshua said " And now, O FATHER, esteem YOU me with YOUR OWN SELF with the esteem which I had with YOU before the world was.", he was giving reference to the esteem ["glory"] that he had with his and our FATHER Yahweh before the world was. He was not giving reference to his pre-existing his birth before the world was. A father most certainly can have esteem for their own child before they are born and come into existence. A child can also refer to the esteem their father had for them before they were born and came into existence. This would stand true in relation to Yahshua, since he most certainly had a record of the esteem that FATHER Yahweh had for him before the world was in the Scripture that he, his disciples, and the Apostles taught from.

I would also like to point out and explain my emphasis of CAPITALIZATION and underlining in the following Scripture verse that you presented:

" And now, O FATHER, esteem YOU me with YOUR OWN SELF with the esteem which I had with YOU before the world was."

This verse alone proves the "Jesus IS God!" doctrine to be false!

As you will note, I have CAPITALIZED every word that Yahshua used in reference TO FATHER Yahweh in WHAT YAHSHUA SAID TO HIM and I have underlined every reference word that Yahshua used in reference to himself. Yahshua was not communing ["praying"] to himself in heaven but was communing with his and our FATHER Yahweh WHO IS IN HEAVEN when he himself WAS HERE ON EARTH.

benalvino:

you said it was the Father that made him in the likeness of men... that has contradicted you because he was something before he was made in the likeness of men... you seem to be a very confused person...

despite the verse says he was in the form God before he took the likeness of Men... you have come to say it is a lie that the bible is a lie... that Jesus did not originate as God... that verse talks about what he is before he became man... you seem to hide behind falsehood and anyone reading can see it.

The Word that was in the beginning became flesh... dont you see it... the flesh it became is Jesus therefore Jesus is the Word in the beginning... you are really confusing your self.. Isaiah and many prophets were the spoke men of YAHWEH how come they are not the word?

you are in the pool of confusion while you drink cocktail... You are saying Jesus was not in the beginning then you say the word that was in the beginning became flesh as Jesus... Are you drunk?
then colossians went on to say through him(Jesus) not the Word now...
Hebrew 1:3 says through Jesus the universe was created...

You have failed badly trying to say Jesus is not the word... It wont take long before Mr frosbel click like for the non sense you are posting here...

you are the one Deciding for the Holy spirit what he should have written... Phil 2:6 jesus exist as God then Took up human nature... you say it is a lie that God made him in the likeness of men... Was he suppose to be in the likeness of Goat?
the verse simply told you what jesus is before he became human so he can die for us... [size=18pt] [/size]

You said "you said it was the Father that made him in the likeness of men... that has contradicted you because he was something before he was made in the likeness of men... you seem to be a very confused person..."

How is my saying it was the Father that made him in the likeness of men to "he was something before he was made in the likeness of men" when the later in quotation marks is what you believe, not I. My belief would be contradictory to what it is that you believe, not contrdictory to what it is that I believe. Your beliefs would most certainly be contradictory to what it is that I believe, since I teach in accordance to what is taught in Scripture and you do not. I can only conclude that it is you that is in fact the very confused person!

The verse does not say "he was in the form God before he took the likeness of Men." I have never said and you will never find me say "The Bible is a lie!" Nowhere in Scripture will you ever find it said or taught "Jesus originated as God." The verse never "talks about what he is before he became man." Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say and teach "Jesus is the Word in the beginning." I have never said that the prophets of old are the word of Yahweh or that Yahshua is the word of Yahweh. That later is your belief, not mine. You said "you are in the pool of confusion while you drink cocktail... You are saying Jesus was not in the beginning then you say the word that was in the beginning became flesh as Jesus... Are you drunk? Again, it is you that believes "Jesus IS the Word", not I! It seems that you are getting your beliefs confused with what it is that I believe.

benalvino:

What was in the beginning and what became flesh... You and frosbel can live in denial all you want it won't retranslate the bible.

He didn't take the form of human Abi? Oya lets tear out Phil 2:6 cause that verse is want of the verses you dont like.

You still can't understand colossians and John 1:3. Too bad for you. Those verse hardly ever needs translation.

No, I have no desire whatsoever to understand understand Colossians and John 1:3. that you pervert to your own perspective!

FATHER Yahweh's word became flesh in that Yahshua was the spokesman of his and our FATHER Yahweh's word. IT was FATHER Yahweh's word that was in the beginning, not His SON Yahshua. He did not pre-exist his birth as an actual being as FATHER Yahweh's Word as the deceptive Christian preachers teach. In fact, in their own so-called "Holy Bible" says "... and the Word was God.", not "Jesus." Actually, if these translations were in accordance with the Greek they would more accurately translated as "God was the word" which changes the meaning considerably.

WHO IS THE WORD?
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/757140248/who-is-the-word

No, I said that he did not MAKE himself huMAN, he "come in the flesh", was MADE of a woman and was born "A MAN"! It says ",... took on him the form of a servant, and was MADE in the likeness of men ..." It was FATHER Yahweh Who MADE Yahshua is the likeness of men, since it is He Who is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. Note that Adam (MAN and woMAN) were also MADE in FATHER Yahweh's image MAKING Yahshua the "Second Adam." Yahshua had to be a man just like us in having the same origin. Yahshua did not originate as "God" and pre-exist his birth as an actual being and neither did we!

benalvino:

you denial continues...
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. john 1:3... you are officially twisting your understanding to suit what you want... I feel sorry for you.

a simple colossians and john 1:3 has become da vinci code for you and you want to solve mystery that is in it that isnt there... I quote phil 2:6 hebrew etc to show you that he pre-exist.
if he is already human why does he have to make him self human?

honestly take a look at the scripture and tell me you are sure of what you are saying...

The only thing that I deny is the false doctrine that you teach.

My agenda is not to solve a mystery as in The Da Vinci Code, but is to expose the falsehood of fgalse propets and preachers and how Scripture has been perverted in translation in an attempt to deceive even the very elect. It is you that is part of the big "Triune Mystery Religion".

Yahshua did not make himself huMAN, he "come in the flesh" and was born "A MAN"!

I can not "honestly take a look at the scripture" from your deceitful perspective