hisblud: and sorry you have done a very bad determinant at it when its stirring you in the face, you would rather lean towards scholars than what you read in black and white. SMH.
oh your scholars who you presented that are all in confusion of what to replace as "GOD" in ps 45.6? Hmm scholars indeed

ok what is JUDGE, god, ANGEL in hebrew?

the answer you give to my above question would help us. Am waiting?

Hmm You have not given us the original translation nor who wrote ps45.6!

Below is the Othodox Jewish Bible of Ps 45.6

|6(7)| Thy kisse (throne), O
Elohim, is olam va'ed; the
shevet (sceptre) of Thy
Malchut is a shevet of
uprightness.

Also note the picture below of ps45.6(7) from Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, edited by Karl Ellinger and Wilhelm Rudolph. Fifth Revised Edition, edited by Adrian Schenker. © 1977 and 1997 Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft Stuttgart. Used by permission.)


note they use "Elohim" in that context not JUDGE, gods nor ANGEL which have different rendering of "lohim" as i have shown you above. I am wondering where your so called scholars got thier JUDGE from and decided to insert it into ps45.6?

FYI, whenever "you read in black and white" in any translation you are "lean[ing] towards scholars."

And as I have told you ... Do I really need to repeat myself time and time again?

As to the image you presented, I have no problem with. It is your stance on it that I disagee with. Why would the use of "Elohim" be "JUDGE"? It would not only be improper, but would not be a TRANSLITERATION as it says in the image itself? The English word 'judge' is not even a Hebrew word!

benalvino:

isnt it what phil 2:6 and colossians is telling you?
what part of all things you understand as some things? since when all things doesn't mean all things? could you tell me the things that are not included in the all things?

No, Philippians 2:6 and Colossians does not tell me that FATHER Yahweh created "THROUGH" His SON Yahshua. It was "BECAUSE OF" or "ON ACCOUNT OF" Yahshua that FATHER Yahweh created the heavens and the earth and "ALL THINGS IN THEM."

[b]Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
Study On the Words Transalted as "By" and "Through"
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say or teach that Yahshua created or pre-existed his birth.

I understand "all things" quite well, since I have been stressing this point all along by CAPITALIZING and placing "ALL THINGS" within quotation marks all throughout this forum. What I am stressing is the truth. FATHER Yahweh is the Creator of the Heavens and the earth and "ALL THINGS" IN THEM.

benalvino:

2 tries and still did not answer the question...
How can everything be created through him if he never exist before those things were created?

Everything was not created "THROUGH" Yahshua as if he had pre-existed his birth!

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

hisblud:
Ok only FRANK4YAHWEH knows the original translation, please share with us thanks.

2. Who wrote this psalms as The Holy Spirit secretary?

3. Stop being deceitful, i have shown you this Elohim is ONLY used for Yahweh while via following for JUDGE in hebrew is [Hashopet][Haa'2lohiym], gODS like moses in hebrew is ['2lohiym] and ANGEL in hebrew is [mee'2lohiym]thus differentiating the above from God [Elohiym] literally?

4. In context, considering the above hebrew renderings, ps45.2,6 shows NO JUDGE, NOR gods NOR ANGEL but ELOHIM.

Again, it all depends on the context in determining how it is to be translated.

No, it is NOT "only [I who] knows the original translation."

No, you have NOT "shown [me] this Elohim is ONLY used for Yahweh."

"... the word 'elohim' is not always in reference to FATHER Yahweh."

benalvino:

the question you were ask is different from the answer you are giving... I ask again...
colossians 1:15 - if jesus never exist before how can you explain that?
phil 2:6 - if he never exist how can he exist as God then take the form of a servant?

The son is THE IMAGE of the INVISIBLE Yahweh, the firstborn over all creation. Being an image of Yahweh does not make one Yahweh. Yahshua being the firstborn of all craetion is not in reference to his being born or created from the beginning before anything else was craeted, but is in reference to his being the the first fruit of the "first fruits" being born from the dead. He is the first of all cretaion to be "born again" the first to be resurrected from the dead to live life eternally.

Yahshua did not exist as "God" then take up the from of a servant. Being in the "form" of Yahweh is also not being Yahweh or "God."

THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF YAHSHUA
Rev. 3:14 & Col. 1:15
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/757756028/the-pre-existence-of-yahshua

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/756934946/the-pre-existence

benalvino:

why is it that anything that doesnt fit with your bad beliefs is wrong? why is it that only you know how to spot right translation?
how do you translate colossians 1:15 as jesus came into existence when mary gave birth to him. How will you also translate phil 2:6?

in addition... what is the context?

I do not have bad beliefs I hold fast to that which is true. Who said that only I know how to spot right translation? Certainly not me!


"Jesus IS God!" is a bad and unscriptural doctrine that is untrue and Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh is the righteous Scriptural doctrine that is true. I have also made it known that I do not give reference to FATHER Yahweh or to His SON as "Elohim ['God']". I give reference to FATHER Yahweh as Almighty or Mighty One and to His SON as being a mighty one who receives his strength, power (authority), or might from His and our FATHER Yahweh. Yahshua can not be the "Almighty" since, he clearly made it known that his and our FATHER yahweh is GREATER than he, One who says that there is another greater than he can not be "Almighty".

hisblud:

To the bolded, ok lets start again...


Why did the Blessed Holy Spirit move His secretary (david) to use "Elohim" in ps45.2,6 instead of JUDGE [Hashopet][Haa'²lohiym], nor gODS['²lohiym] nor ANGEL [mee'²lohiym] thus differentiating the above from God [Elohiym] literally?

Can you help give the WHY? because it seems you feel/claim you are more knowledgable than the Inspirer!

First off, the TRANSLATION that you are reading is not the original and Dawid was not responsible for any translations. And I have told you time and time again that the word 'elohim' is not always in reference to FATHER Yahweh. I have also showed you that elohim can be translated as "judges." Again, it all depends on the context in determining how it is to be translated.

Well, it seems that you would know Who the only true Mighty One is by now, and you should know by now that we believe it is FATHER Yahweh and not His SON Yahshua. FATHER Yahweh is the only true Mighty One all other so-called "Gods" are false or no gods meaning that they have no power (authority), strength, might or receive their power from Yahweh Almighty. This is in agereement with what you said as follows:

"They are not gods to be worshipped the way we worship the only true God. They are gods cos they are children of God and they received power and authority from God who is the source of Godhead, to execute judgement over others."

This fits exactly with what I have been conveying concering FATHER Yahweh's SON Yahshua, since he is not "the only true Mighty One ['God']" and is not to be worshipped as such. Yahshua is a child (SON) of FATHER Yahweh who has received power (authority) from FATHER Yahweh.

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/761316151/elohim-one-or-more-than-one

"The first time the word "God" is mentioned in Scripture (Genesis 1:1), it is translated from the Hebrew ELOHIM. This word, which appears 2250 times in the Old Testament, is translated "God" when used in reference to the one true God[1], but it is also translated "god" when used in reference to a false god (Exodus 22:20; Deuteronomy 32:39) or "gods" when referring to a multiplicity of false deities[2], "god" or "gods" in reference to human beings (Exodus 7:1; Psalms 82:6), "angels," (Psalm 8:5) "judges," (Exodus 21:6; 22:8-9) "mighty," in reference to a human prince (Genesis 23:6) and to thunder (Exodus 9:28), and "great,": in reference to Rachel's competition with her sister [Genesis 30:8].

1. In the first five books of the Bible, ELOHIM is used 682 times. In hundreds of these references, it is to the one true God of Israel.

2. Genesis 31:30, 32; 35:2, 4; Exodus 12:12; 18:11; 20:3, 23; 22:28; 23:13, 24, 32-33; 32:1, 4, 8, 23, 31, 34:15-17; Leviticus 19:4; Numbers 25:2; 33:4; Deuteronomy 4:28; 5:7; 6:14; 7:4, 16, 25; 8:19; 10:17; 11:16, 28; 12:2-3, 30, 31; 13:2, 6-7, 13; 17:3; 18:20; 20:18; 28:14, 36, 64; 29:18, 26; 30:17; 31:16, 18, 20; 32:17, 37."
SOURCE: http://www.altupc.com/altupc/articles/elohimpl.htm

Even Trinitarians Believe!

"Elohim Is Used Of False Gods

Elohim is used not only for the true God but also for false gods.

Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold (Exodus 20:23).

The Term Is Also Used Of Angels

The term Elohim is also used of angels.

You made humanity little lower than the heavenly beings [Elohim] (Psalm 8:6)

There Are Instances Of Elohim Referring To Human Beings

On some occasions, Elohim refers to human beings.

I said, ‘You are "gods" [Elohim] you are all sons of the Most High' (Psalm 82:6)."
SOURCE: http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=1303

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary agrees that Psalm 82:1 is in reference to judges:

"82:1-5 Magistrates are the mighty in authority for the public good. Magistrates are the ministers of God's providence, for keeping up order and peace, and particularly in punishing evil-doers, and protecting those that do well. Good princes and good judges, who mean well, are under Divine direction; and bad ones, who mean ill, are under Divine restraint. The authority of God is to be submitted to, in those governors whom his providence places over us. But when justice is turned from what is right, no good can be expected. The evil actions of public persons are public mischiefs."

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible gives a number of interpretation, one being as follows that agrees that Psalm 82:1 is in reference to judges"

"The words may be rendered, "God standeth in the congregation of God" (a): that is, in his own congregation, his church and people; but it seems best of all to understand the words of rulers and civil magistrates, of the cabinet councils of princes, of benches of judges, and courts of judicature; in all which God is present, and observes what is said and done; ..."

From the same sourse above the following agrees that Psalm 82:1 is in reference to judges:

"Aben Ezra interprets it of them, who are so called, Psalm 8:5, but rather civil magistrates are meant, the rulers and judges of the people, who go by this name of "elohim", or gods, in Exodus 21:6, and are so called because they are the powers ordained of God, are representatives of him, are his vicegerents and deputies under him; should act in his name, according to his law, and for his glory, and are clothed with great power and authority from and under him; and therefore are before styled the "mighty". ... Among these Christ, the Son of God, judges, to whom all judgment is committed; he qualifies these for the discharge of their office, he directs them how to judge, and all the right judgment they make and do is from him, "by" whom "kings" reign, and princes decree justice; by whom princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth; and to whom they are all accountable, and will be themselves judged by him another day, Proverbs 8:15 so the Targum, "in the midst of the judges of truth he judges.''"

There are some who believe Psalm 82:1 is in reference to angels which is mentioned in this source:
http://biblehub.com/psalms/82-1.htm

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority [power] except that which Yahweh has established. The authorities [powers] that exist have been established by Yahweh (Romans 13:1).



----------------

hisblud: @ben please kindly stop giving frank4yahweh and frosbel armor to blur this thread. They have continually danced around heb1.8 and ps45.6 trying in vain to recreate those verses out of context, unfortuately they have failed. So once again, i say anti trinitarian have not proved that heb1.8 by extension ps45.6 was not speaking about the Son.

Thanks for calling it armour in opposition to your blured, foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine. It is you who that is trying in vain to recreate verses out of context and in turn have brutally failed in promoting your false doctrine. You are getting owned on your own thread that you started!

Keep that "armour" coming that we are to use to fight off the wiles of the devil Ben!

You say "... anti trinitarian have not proved that heb1.8 by extension ps45.6 was not speaking about the Son. That is simply because you refuse to believe what FATHER Yahweh says that it was He "ALONE", "BY HIMSELF, with "NO ONE BESIDE HIM" Who created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM and that Yahshua is NEVER RECORDED in ANY translation of the so-called "New Testament" that he had created ANYTHING! Hebrews 1:8 by extension of Psalm 45:6 is speaking about both the FATHER and His SON. When it speaks concerning Who it is that created, it is speaking of FATHER Yahweh and not His SON Yahshua.

BTW, where is all that truth that you said that you would be presenting?

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

The resurrected saints will definitely see Yahweh as they serve Him in His Kingdom. Note the following:

In Psalm 17:15 Dawid wrote, "As for me, I will behold Your face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Your likeness." In Mattithyah [Matthew] 5:8 Yahshua said, "Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see Yahweh." Revelation 22:3-4 tells us: "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of Yahweh and of the Lamb shall be in it; and *His servants shall serve Him: And they shall see His face; and His Name [shall be] in their foreheads."

*Note that Yahshua is the prophesied 'HUMBLE SERVANT' of his and our FATHER Yahweh and he will also serve FATHER Yahweh. The fact that Yahshua will also serve his and our FATHER Yahweh proves that without a doubt that Yahshua IS NOT his and our FATHER Yahweh!

It is only the "pure in heart (the righteous)" that will see (percieve or understand) Yahweh! HalleluYAHWEH! (Praise be to Yahweh with outstreched hands!) \0/

frosbel:

embodiment of contradiction !

Yes it is! That's the so-called "Holy Trinty"! We are not going to take it though, are we?

benalvino: ^^^^
you like to explain your self to oblivion.... lol look the bold again from the 2 verses below
"No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us." 1John 4:12
And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form (John 5:37).

Again, when Yahshua said "YOU have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form" he was speaking to the people who were present with him at the time in saying "YOU". And 1 Yahcnanan [John] 4:12 is also in reference to the people at that time. This is evident in that it clearly says in Scripture that those in the past have seen FATHER Yahweh, but not in His fullness. One must also take into consideration that SEEING and HEARING is not always in reference to LITERALLY seeing and hearing with one's eyes and ears, but is also in reference to what one SEES and HEARS in a figurative sense in that they understand or perceive what FATHER Yahweh actually says and in the things that He has created:

For since the creation of the world Yahweh's invisible qualities--His eternal power and powerful nature--have been clearly SEEN, being UNDERSTOOD from what has been made, so that people are without excuse (Romans 1:20).

The heavens declare the esteem of Yahweh; the skies proclaim the work of His hands (Psalm 19:1).

Just as you said "Jesus [in the so-called "New Testamet"] [taught that] no one has seen the father or [heard] his voice... In the old testament people said they saw YHWH face to face...

I see you like to explain your false doctrine to oblivion to the point that you would rather Scripture contradict itself rather than harmonize!

I think it is about time that you remove the vail from your heart and take FATHER Yahweh's instruction [torah "law"] to heart!

benalvino:


Genesis 32:30
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

And as I had just made known "Those who it is said that they seen FATHER Yahweh face to face in the past did not see Him in His entirety." One's life is not preserved in LITERALLY SEEING FATHER Yahweh's face, since it says that when one does they can not live. Again, one must take into consideration whether it is more rewarding in LITERALLY SEEING FATHER Yahweh or SEEING as in understanding or perceiving His word. *In Corinthians that I had just previously posted it is not speaking of LITERALLY SEEING FATHER Yahweh, but is speaking of our understanding or perceiving what His word actually says which is in the so-called Old Testament."

*And not as Moshe, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Ysryl could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this time remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Messiah. But even unto this time, when Moshe is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it [their heart] shall turn to Yahweh, the vail shall be taken away. Now Yahweh is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of Yahweh is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the esteem of Yahweh, are being transformed into the same image from esteem to esteem, just as from Yahweh, the Spirit. Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of Yahweh deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of Yahweh.

This vail that was upon their heart is done away in Messiah, and now they can CLEARLY SEE in reading the old testament. This SEEING or HEARING is not with the eyes, but is in the figaritive sense in that one can now understand or perceive what is being said in Scripture [the "Old Testament"].

benalvino:

what part of no one do you not understand?
you and me know the bible says if you see the father you cant live... you will die we all know that.

I understand "no one" in the context and the time setting in which it was said. Those who it is said that they seen FATHER Yahweh face to face in the past did not see Him in His entirety.

Yes it is true that one can not see FATHER Yahweh in His fullness:

But you may not look directly at My face, for no one may see Me and live (Exodus 33:20) - Living Translation).

WEll, it seems that you are partially right, since you have only read a very small potion of what is actually being said in accordance with the context. This is a common practice among Trinitarians in taking a single verse out of context in an attempt to promote false doctrine. When they ignore the context, this in turn is taking away from His word. Now, continuing to read from verse 20:


Exodus 33:21-23
And Yahweh said, Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand upon a rock: When My esteem passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will remove my hand and you will see My back; but My face must not be seen."

One should not build a false doctrine out of one single verse taken out of context of what is actually being said, since we are instructed to live BY EVERY WORD that proceeds out of that mouth, not just a portion of what He has said.

Now, to Corinthians:

And not as Moshe, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Ysryl could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this time remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Messiah. But even unto this time, when Moshe is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it [their heart] shall turn to Yahweh, the vail shall be taken away. Now Yahweh is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of Yahweh is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the esteem of Yahweh, are being transformed into the same image from esteem to esteem, just as from Yahweh, the Spirit. Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of Yahweh deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of Yahweh.

This vail that was upon their heart is done away in Messiah, and now they can CLEARLY SEE in reading the old testament. This SEEING or HEARING is not with the eyes, but is in the figaritive sense in that one can now understand or perceive what is being said in Scripture [the "Old Testament"].

benalvino:

Jesus teach no one has seen the father or hear his voice... In the old testament people said they saw YHWH face to face...

"None Have Seen the Father?

Jn. 5:37 applies only to the Jewish people to whom Yahshua spoke at that moment. The people who were present that day had never seen the Father's shape, nor heard his voice. A number of others have seen the form (shape or silhouette) of the Father, but not the features of his face. A few of these were Moses [Ex. 33:18-23; Nu.12:6-8]; seventy Elders of Israel (Ex. 24:10); Ezekiel, in visions (Ezek. Ch.1); etc. Millions (perhaps as many as 2 to 5 million) in Israel heard the voice of Yahweh when he spoke from the mountain top. They asked Moses to go near and hear Yahweh, as they did not wish to hear him more, lest they should die (Ex. 20:18; Deut. 5:22-28)."
SOURCE: http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/760191381/various-thoughts-on-scriptures

One might also want to consider if it is more rewarding to literally see and hear FATHER Yahweh with our eyes and ears as opposed to seeing and hearing Him figuratively in the sense that one can understand His word.

BTW, I still do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth.

There are MANY "Gods" and MANY "Lords" but to us there is only one true Yahowah Almighty. Yahshua is my brother, not my "God.":

It is not with malakim that Yahweh is concerned, but with the descendants of Abraham, therefore he (Yahshua) had to be made like his brethern IN EVERY RESPECT, so that he might become a merciful high priest (Heb. 2:16,17). Another Scripture speaking of Yahshua, reveals that the spiritual body does not come first (as in a pre-existence). No. The PHYSICAL body comes FIRST, and only later comes the SPIRITUAL body (1 Cor. 15:45,46).

"For it was fitting that he [Yahweh], for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make [
Yahshua] the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering. For he [Yahshua] who sanctifies and those who are sanctified have all ONE ORIGIN. That is why he [Yahshua] is not ashamed to call them brethern, saying, I will proclaim thy name [Yahweh's name] to my brethern, in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee" (Heb. 2:10-12; Ps. 22:22 RSV).

Yahshua had to be A MAN just like us!:

After his resurrection, even after he ascended into heaven, he was referred to as "man," or "son of man," more than 30 times. Total equals more than 95 times.

Before His Resurrection
A man among men

Matthew
8:20; 9:6; 10:23; 11:19; 12:8,32,40; 13:37,41; 16:13,27,28; 17:9,12,22; 18:11; 20:18,28; 25:13; 26:2,24,24,45

Mark
2:10,28; 8;31; 9:9,12,31; 10:33,45; 13:34; 14: 21,21,41

Luke
6:5,22; 7:34; 9:22,44,56,58; 11:30; 12:8,10; 17:22; 18:8,31; 19:10; 22:22,48; 24:7

John
1:51; 3:13,14; 5:27, 6:7,53,62; 8:28; 12:23,34,34; 13:31

Acts
2:22

After His Resurrection
And at his second coming

Dan. 7:13 - A man from heaven
Mt. 19:28 - A man from heaven
Mt. 24:7 - A man from heaven
Mt. 24:30 - A man from heaven
Mt. 24:37 - A man from heaven
Mt. 24:39 - A man from heaven
Mt. 24:44 - A man from heaven
Mt. 25:13 - A man from heaven
Mt. 25:31 - A man from heaven
Mt. 26:64 - A man in heaven
Mk. 8:38 - A man from heaven
Mk. 13:26 - A man from heaven
Mk. 14:62 - A man in heaven
Lk. 9:26 - A man from heaven
Lk. 12:40 - A man from heaven
Lk. 17:24 - A man from heaven
Lk. 17:26 - A man from heaven
Lk. 17:30 - A man from heaven
Lk. 21:27 - A man from heaven
Lk. 21:36 - A man from heaven
Lk. 22:69 - A man in heaven
Jn. 1:51 - A man in heaven
Jn. 3:14 - A man in heaven
Acts 7:56 - A man in heaven
Acts 17:31 - A man in heaven
Rom. 5:15 -
1 Cor. 15:21 -
1 Cor. 15:47 - A man from heaven
1 Tim. 2:5 - A man, Yahshua Messiah
Rev. 1:13 - A man in heaven
Rev. 14:14 - A man in heaven

Please note that Yahweh and the Scriptures state emphatically that HE IS NOT A MAN (or human in any sense of the word).

Yahweh is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it right? (Numbers 23:19).

And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor relent. For He is not a man, that He should relent (1 Samuyl 15:29).

Behold, in this you art not right: I will answer you, that Yahweh is greater than man (Iyyob [Job] 33:12).

I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am Yahweh, and not man; the set apart One in the midst of you: and I will not enter into the city (Hosheyah [Hosea] 11:19).

The Complete Jewish Bible translates this verse even clearer for us:

Hosea 11:9 I will not give vent to the fierceness of my rage, I will not return to destroy Efrayim; for I [Yahweh] am Elohim, not a human being, the Holy One among you; so I will not come in fury. (CJB)"
SOURCE: http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/760190434/the-man-yahshua

benalvino:

the truth is you will accept any argument that supports what you are looking for. even if the argument says green is black.
so all you have been saying is based on your bias.

No, I would not accept an argument that says that green is black and what I say is what Scripture says. Scripture instructs that I confess that Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh. I know for a fact that FATHER Yahweh is Yahshua's FATHER, since he is frequently recorded in the so-called "New Testament" as referring to Him as "FATHER." FATHER Yahweh is also recorded in this same section of Scripture as referring to Yahshua as His SON. This is a truth that Scripture speaks that one can not deny that it does not. Strait forward plain spoken doctrines taught in Scripture is the doctrines that I will hold fast to!

Nowhere in Scripture am I ever asked to believe and confess "God the Son", "Jesus IS God!", a "Holy Trinity", "Deity of Jesus Christ", or "Jesus pre-existed his birth."

Emusan:

I asked Frosbel this question maybe he didn't see it, but let me ask you too.

Who gave Moses the Ten Commandment in the Old Testament, is it Yeshau or YHWH?

I do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth and I do not believe that frobel does either.

hisblud:

False..no..no.. The Truth that has always been that you dogmatically and deliberately ignore coming soon.

Oh! I'm so excited, I can hardly wait to ignore the false teaching that I have already heard befoire!

benalvino:

This is why we have so many bibles... has your religion released their own? that is the one i want to use.

I am of no specific religious organization. I use various translations of Scripture in my reading and studying of Scripture.

hisblud:

Great!... please kindly allow this to be started on a new thread of its own... i like your flow... because this is all about Heb 1.8, Ps45.6. ok?

Oh no! Me thinks there be a false revelation of a "Triune God" coming to head!

hisblud:

https://www.nairaland.com/1341369/anti-trinitarian-please-kindly-frosbel-answer/5#17192456

Good to know you have owned up to what you wrote. Now how can you claim that Strong is biased in his work, which has put a hole in your scholarly reference then you turn around and claim he cannot be with respect to ps45.6? This sounds like confusion becos your wrangling is weak at best.

Now lets simply look at the word "God" rendered by Strong's concordance below. It showed literally "Elohim" not "Hashopet" which stands for "Judge". From the strong concordance you now claim, though trinity baised, it uses the word "occassionally" which means from time to time, but not regularly or frequently Microsoft® Encarta® 2009. © 1993-2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
.

Thus implying that in this context and verse, it is not used as JUDGE [Hashopet][Haa'²lohiym], nor gODS['²lohiym] nor ANGEL [mee'²lohiym] thus differentiating the above from God [Elohiym] literally.

Therefore, i can boldly state that in context, ps 45.6 is refering to "Elohim" as well as in v2....

I have never denied anything that I have wrote, it is you who perverts what I say and takes it out of context as you also do the Scripture. For example you just said "... then you turn around and claim he cannot be with respect to ps45.6?" Here you are lying, since I have never claimed this.

I am not saying that James Strong's concordance is completely inaccurate. I use it for reference frequently as I do others. In my using the Strong's Concordance I have noted the Trinitarian bias in interpretation.

You said: 'Now lets simply look at the word "God" rendered by Strong's concordance below. It showed literally "Elohim" not "Hashopet" which stands for "Judge".'

Well, the word 'elohim' can also give reference to "angels" but the Hebrew word for "angels" is 'malakim'. As I have been trying to tell you all along, the word 'elohim' simply designates and is in reference to a being or inanimate object such as and idol having strength, power (authority), or might.

So, just as in our English language where the words strength, power (authority) and might can be applied to a judge, so also in the same manner the word 'elohim' (which means 'strength, power (authority) or might') can apply to judges. I am not saying that the Hebrew word for judges means 'elohim', but that the word 'elohim' can apply to judges.

benalvino:

But the right translation is me... I will show you more examples... One little example is that God bought the church by his blood... All are connceted... And you can't run for ever lol more is coming

No, the right translation would not be "me."

ALL righteous things come from FATHER Yahweh and rightfully are His concerning His people. Scripture teaches that life is in the blood so Yahshua's life and blood is most certainly his and our FATHER Yahweh's just as our life and blood is. All throughout Scripture FATHER Yahweh is illustrated as having human body parts and He most certainly can be illustred as having blood also. I can say of my son that his blood is mine, but that does not make my son me. This is just a way of saying that he is my rightful son.

No, I'm not running from anything!

I believe the following translations to be more accurate:

1903, "with the blood of his own Son" The Holy Bible in Modern Speech, by F.Fenton

1966, "through the death of his own Son" Todays English Version, American Bible Society.

There are more that could be cited, they being:

The Authentic New Testament (Schonfield, 1954)

The New Testament: A New Translation (W.Barclay, 1963)

The Translator's New Testament (1973)

New Revised Standard Version (1989)

Contemporary English Version (1995)

The J. N. Darby's translation translates the last part of Acts 20:28 as,

"which he [God] has purchased with the blood of his own."

Darby in a footnote to this verse says:

"I am fully satisfied that this is the right translation of ver.28. To make it a question of the divinity of Christ(which I hold to be of the foundation of Christianity)is absurd. It has been questioned whether 'of his own' can be used thus absolutely in the singular. But we have it in John 15.19, and in the neuter singular for material things, Acts 4.32. ..."

'[b]What Darby here shows from his referring us to John 15:19 and Acts 4:32 is that "idiou" can be used without an accompanying noun in the Greek and to indicate that which is 'possessed' by the referent mentioned previously. In Acts 20:28 he believes that "idiou," "own," is a reference to God's own "son" not to God's own "blood."

In agreement with Darby is what is stated in A New Commentary on Holy Scripture (SPCK, London, corrected reprint of March, 1946, page 369):

"In [v]28 the subject of 'purchased' is more naturally God not Christ. But the phrase 'the blood of God' is incredible in St. Paul. Some have conjectured that the word 'Son' has fallen out. Otherwise it is best to translate blood that is His own."-italics theirs.

There are a number of manuscripts that read not "God," but "Lord," so the latter part of Acts 20:28 would then read as from the Revised Standard Version, "to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood." Apparently the manuscript evidence for either is balanced[/b].'
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/acts20.28.htm

benalvino:

You are right... Judges are translated as elohim in the bible... Judges and magistrates that is what YHWH means by ye are gods... The JW thinks it means humans are god In the nature of God in heaven... That is why YHWH keep saying he is the only God. And God manisfest in the flesh... There are verses i have giving you that caused problem for you. You ask why question i answered... So why did YHWH said they pierce him? Isn't Jesus the one that was pierced? What about seeking refuge ? You can't answer both.

Zecharyah 12:10

Yahweh Almighty speaks:

“...they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son” - Zech. 12:10, KJV; cf. NKJV, NIV, NASB, NEB, REB, ASV, AB, KJIIV, ETRV, Douay, Beck, Rotherham, Lamsa.

This is interpreted by many trinitarians as meaning that "Jesus IS God!" since Yahshua was “pierced” by the Yahdah ["Jews"].
Unfortunately for this trinitarian interpretation even many trinitarian translations disagree:

“...when they look upon him whom they have pierced” - RSV. Also in agreement with this rendering are NRSV; GNB; CEV; MLB; NAB (1970); NAB (1991); LB; Mo; AT; JB; NJB; NLV; BBE; and Byington. (ASV says in a footnote for “me” in Zech. 12:10 “According to some MSS. [manuscripts], ‘him’.” Also see Rotherham footnote.)

Even the context tells us that the latter rendering is the correct one. Notice that after saying that they will look upon me (or him), Yahweh continues with “they shall mourn for HIM”! Notice how the KJV (and those following its tradition) contradicts itself here. The “me” in the first half simply does not agree with the “him” of the second half. Since there has never been any question about the accuracy of the word “him” in the second half, the disputed word of the first half (which has manuscript evidence for both renderings) must also properly be rendered as “him” (or “the one”).

The testimony of the first Christian writers to come after the NT writers (the ‘Ante-Nicene Fathers') confirms the non-trinitarian translation of Zechariah 12:10 ["him"]. Ignatius, Irenaeus, and Tertullian (repeatedly) rendered Zech. 12:10 as "him whom they pierced"! This is especially significant because trinitarian scholars and historians claim these particular early Christians (including Origen who doesn't quote Zech. 12:10 at all in his existing writings) are the very ones who actually began the development of the trinity doctrine for Christendom! If any of the earliest Christian writers, then, would use a trinitarian interpretation here, it would certainly be these three. Since they do not do so, it must mean that the source for the `look upon me' translation originated even later than the time of Ignatius, Irenaeus, and Tertullian (early 3rd century A.D.)!

But most important of all is Yahchanan [John] 19:37 (even in the KJV) where this scripture has been quoted by Yahchanan! All translations show Yahchanan here translating Zecharyah 12:10 as “They shall look upon him [or ‘the one’] whom they pierced.” So we have this Apostle and inspired Scripture writer telling us plainly (and undisputed even by trinitarian scholars) that Zecharyah 12:10 should read: “They shall look upon him (not ‘me’).” Therefore, Yahweh is speaking in Zecaryah 12:10 of someone else who will be pierced - not Himself!

benalvino:

because it was created for him and through him...

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil (Prov. 16:4).

But the Apostle Paul wrote the following about Jesus:
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him (Col. 1:16).
you get the deal? it was created for him in the first place and by him...

Well, you forgot the content because the verse just before this says:

"The son is the image of the INVISIBLE Yahweh, the firstborn over all creation."

The above verse is in reference to Yahshua FATHER Yahweh's SON.

Now, the next verse is in reference to FATHER Yahweh:

For in Him [FATHER Yahweh] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him [FATHER Yahweh] and for Him [FATHER Yahweh].

truthislight: why do people wish to tell themselves that we did not inherit the sin of Adam ? :


"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation sacrifice through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of "sins that occurred in the past", through the forbearance of God;" (Romans 3:25).
.................

Yes, this verse refers to the sins that one personally commits in the past, not to the sins that Adam and Eve comitted in the past.

hisblud: evidence? Ok who claimed that the hebrew rendering of ps 45.6 by strong's concordance is pro-trinitarian to discredit evidence against your failed association of Judge to God in v6? I have shown that the hebrew word for "Judge" is not same for the word "God" which you couldnt deny, also i showed you that the hebrew word for "god" is not same as "God". And how can the scholars you presented at the same time be evidence [be logically correct] against Yashua being God when ALL were not in agreement but contradicted themselves? You call their disagreements evidence for anti trinitarian as logical proof? SMH! Bros yeh! You fail big time. Period.

I have never "claimed that the hebrew rendering of ps 45.6 by strong's concordance is pro-trinitarian. I did say James Strong has a Trintarian bias, but not that this bias was concerning "ps 45.6." So, you do not believe that the word 'elohim' can designate malakim [angels] (non-human servants of the one Yahweh) or foreign, pagan deities, judges or even mere men? If not, then do you believe that the word 'elohim' only gives reference to Yahweh?


"STRONG'S CONCORDANCE describes ELOHIM as follows..."....plural of 433 (Eloah); gods in the ordinary sense; but specially used (in the plural, especially with the article..["the"] of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative; angels...exceeding God (gods), goddess, godly, (very) great, judges, mighty."
SOURCE: http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/Elohim.html

"Idols called 'elohim': 2 Chronicles 13:9
Angels called elohim': Pslam 8:6; the LXX and Ch,; Psalm 82:1; 97:7; 138:1
JUDGES called 'elohim': Exodus 21:6; 22:7.8
Hebrews chapter 16 and 2:7.9 show plainly that the word elohim sometimes means angel"
SOURCE:http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H433

benalvino:

hmmm......

In whom are we to take refuge? OT says the son... if you know any other person say
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him (Psa. 2:12).

Notice: one is blessed and not cursed to take refuge in the Son. Yet the following Scripture declares another problem for all who reject the deity of Christ:
This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD. He will be like a bush in the wastelands; he will not see prosperity when it comes. He will dwell in the parched places of the desert, in a salt land where no one lives. But blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, whose confidence is in him" (Jer. 17:5-7).

Moreover, the Bible is clear to say YHWH is our Refuge:
You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the LORD is their refuge (Psa. 14:6).

another problem for you... you did not respond to the pierce one i posted earlier

Now read Psalm 2:7 so that you may understand this verse in proper context:

I will [David speaking prophetically in reference to the Messiah or FATHER Yahweh's SON] proclaim [FATHER] Yahweh's decree: He [FATHER Yahweh] said to me [David again speaking prophetically in reference to the Messiah or FATHER Yahweh's SON], "You [David again speaking prophetically in reference to the Messiah or FATHER Yahweh's SON] are My [FATHER Yahweh] SON [David again speaking prophetically in reference to the Messiah or FATHER Yahweh's SON]; today I [FATHER Yahweh] have become your [David again speaking prophetically in reference to the Messiah or FATHER Yahweh's SON] father [FATHER Yahweh].

Definately two separate beings spoken of here! The FATHER and His SON! If you can not see this you are most definately blind!

Yes FATHER Yahweh most certainly is our refuge! And in this last time period Yahshua is also our refuge! Yahshua is our mediator, intercessor, advocate, and the spokesman of his and our FATHER Yahweh's word in this last time period.

Yahshua said that ALL power (authority) had been GIVEN to him in heaven and also in the earth. Since what he says is true, then he most certainly has the power (authority) to redeem mankind from sin and death. This is the refuge or protection that Yahshua offers under the authority of his and our FATHER Yahweh Who is in heaven.

As I have asked many times on this forum ... Since you believe that Yahshua is Yahweh, why would he need to be GIVEN power and authority when FATHER Yahweh has already had power and authority from the very beginning? FATHER Yahweh Who is ALLmighty would have no need for another to give Him power and authority, since He has always had all power and authority from the very beginning. There is no one greater than He to GIVE Him power and auhority! For one to be GIVEN any authority at all there has to be one greater than he to give them that authoity. There are certainly two separate beings spoken of here! We can receive refuge from FATHER Yahweh's SON Yahshua, just as we can receive refuge from FATHER Yahweh, since He has GIVEN His SON ALL power (authority) in heaven and in the earth. Just as Yahshua put his trust in his and our FATHER Yahweh to be redeemed him from death, we can also can put our trust in his and our FATHER Yahweh to redeem us from sin and death. No one comes unto the FATHER but BY (THROUGH) His SON Yahshua His Messiah. Right there is another truth that proves without a doubbt that Yahshua the SON is not FATHER Yahweh. Why would FATHER Yahweh refere to His SON Yahshua as His Messaih is He Himself was the Messiah. t was FATHER Yahweh Wh anioted His SON to become King for 1,000 years. Yahshua did not anoit himself and Father Yahweh most ceratianly did not anoint Himself to become King, since He has been our Supreme King from the very beginning.

hisblud: @frank4yahweh- fail. You have been asked heb1.8, Who was speaking, Who was spoken about and what was spoken about. In black and white, God was speaking about the Son Whom was refered as God. Then in your bid to assume something else, brought forth ps 45.6. When we looked at that verse in the concordance, you said strong's concordance was biased in favor of trinity, because it shot holes in your false confused scholars who were not in agreement, falling over themselves to disprove that Yashua is Elohim but a mere Judge etc. Then you came up with Elohim is not completely hebrew but an incorporation of the name of a canaan pagan god which formed Elohim, thus not being the original name of God but YHWH. Ok i went in line wit your flow and since ps 45.6 is old testament, we substituted God with YHWH. Again it showed that in context its ok then you began fidgeting, saying nothing but Simply YES when questioned, YES to which one, moshe or Yahweh and all you were dodging. I wonder who is deceptive here refusing to face your dilemna. Reread our discussion and you would see how you have being skipping questions i thro at you on Ps 45.2,6. And hoping to blur it when a comment on the seed of david was put forth to evade my questions. I pity you lol

And I have told you time and time again that the word 'elohim' is not always in reference to FATHER Yahweh Who you foolishly beleive is His SON and can in turn be his own FATHER. I also told you that the first part of the verse is in reference to FATHER Yahweh's SON and then when it makes mention of Who is the Creator of the heavens and the earth an ALL THINGS IN THEM, this is in reference to FATHER Yahweh. Just because I do not agree with your false and deceptive teaching does not mean that I am being unresponsive to your questions, but only unresponsive to what is not taught in Scripture that you keep insisting is taught in Scripture which you have yet to present any evidence that it is.

benalvino1:

Bad excuse.

Since when is relying on Scripture for doctrine for reproof and correction and instruction in righteousness that the man of Yahweh may be thoroughly furnished unto all righteous works "Bad"?

I did not give an excuse. I gave the reason I not accept lies that Scvripture clearly does not teach. One can not deny that Scripture clearly SAYS that Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh. They also can not deny the fact that Yahshua is recorded in the so-called "New Testament" a number of times referring to his and our Creator IN HEAVEN as "FATHER" when he was HERE ON EARTH." Even FATHER Yahweh is recorded in this same section of Scripture a number of times as referring to Yahshua as His SON.

From these few facts alone, I can only conclude that you are not speaking what is truth in accodance with or concerning what is ACTUALLY taught in Scripture.