Frank4YAHWEH:

I do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth and I do not believe that frobel does either.

Jesus teach no one has seen the father or hear his voice... In the old testament people said they saw YHWH face to face...

benalvino:

Jesus teach no one has seen the father or hear his voice... In the old testament people said they saw YHWH face to face...

Jesus 'lied'.

frosbel:

Jesus 'lied'.

lol...

And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form (John 5:37).

benalvino:

lol...

And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form (John 5:37).

and so , Jesus was right, no one has seen the Father.

John further confirmed :

"No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us." - 1 John 4:12

frosbel:

and so , Jesus was right, no one has seen the Father.

John further confirmed :

"No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us." - 1 John 4:12

thank you oga frosbel... you confirm no one has seen the father... so lets see who people saw in the OT.
because the statement Jesus made as a strong one.

Please ponder the following Scriptures which prove that YHWH was heard in OT times:

Then the LORD came down in the cloud, and spoke to him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and placed the same upon the seventy elders; and it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, that they prophesied, although they never did so again (Num. 11:25).
Did any people ever hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and live? (Dt. 4:33)

And you said: Surely the LORD our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire. We have seen this day that God speaks with man; yet he still lives. Now therefore, why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the LORD our God anymore, then we shall die. For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? (Dt. 5:24-26)

According to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die (Dt. 18:16).

Yet other Scriptures teach that YHWH was seen in OT times:
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" (Gen. 32:30).
Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank (Ex. 24:9).

And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" (Judges 13:22).

So the LORD became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the LORD God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice (1 Kings 11:9).

So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts" (Isa. 6:5).

I speak with him face to face, Even plainly, and not in dark sayings; And he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses? (Num. 12:.

God was both seen and heard in OT times, yet by Jesus' authority it was not the Father! Who then was it? Consider also John 1:18:
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

but we know Jesus said before Abraham was I Am

benalvino:

thank you oga frosbel... you confirm no one has seen the father... so lets see who people saw in the OT.
because the statement Jesus made as a strong one.

Please ponder the following Scriptures which prove that YHWH was heard in OT times:

Then the LORD came down in the cloud, and spoke to him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and placed the same upon the seventy elders; and it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, that they prophesied, although they never did so again (Num. 11:25).
Did any people ever hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and live? (Dt. 4:33)

And you said: Surely the LORD our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire. We have seen this day that God speaks with man; yet he still lives. Now therefore, why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of the LORD our God anymore, then we shall die. For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? (Dt. 5:24-26)

According to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die (Dt. 18:16).

Yet other Scriptures teach that YHWH was seen in OT times:
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved" (Gen. 32:30).
Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank (Ex. 24:9).

And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" (Judges 13:22).

So the LORD became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the LORD God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice (1 Kings 11:9).

So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts" (Isa. 6:5).

I speak with him face to face, Even plainly, and not in dark sayings; And he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses? (Num. 12:.

God was both seen and heard in OT times, yet by Jesus' authority it was not the Father! Who then was it? Consider also John 1:18:
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

but we know Jesus said before Abraham was I Am

benalvino

you were still adamant and im considering joining this page because of lies propagated here, wait for me and i will be back!

benalvino:

thank you oga frosbel... you confirm no one has seen the father... so lets see who people saw in the OT.
because the statement Jesus made as a strong one.

So Jesus and John lied, people had actually seen GOD in the old testament, lol.


Mate quit you deception.

God is ONE Person, not THREE Persons.

frosbel:


So Jesus and John lied, people had actually seen GOD in the old testament, lol.


Mate quit you deception.

God is ONE Person, not THREE Persons.

I quote the bible exactly... I dont see how you can say otherwise to me... They never said they saw the father or the son... they said they Saw YHWH... Jesus made it clear that before abraham was i am.

Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM [/b]has sent me to you.' "

Jesus revealed his identity, as he stated that he himself spoke to Moses at John 8:58:
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Then later, the Apostle Paul stated the following:
They (the Israelites) were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, [b] and that rock was Christ (1 Cor 10:2-4)

If you would read through the OT, YHWH is shown to be the rock:
I will proclaim the name of the LORD. Oh, praise the greatness of our God! He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he. (Deut. 32:3,4)

benalvino:

Jesus teach no one has seen the father or hear his voice... In the old testament people said they saw YHWH face to face...

"None Have Seen the Father?

Jn. 5:37 applies only to the Jewish people to whom Yahshua spoke at that moment. The people who were present that day had never seen the Father's shape, nor heard his voice. A number of others have seen the form (shape or silhouette) of the Father, but not the features of his face. A few of these were Moses [Ex. 33:18-23; Nu.12:6-8]; seventy Elders of Israel (Ex. 24:10); Ezekiel, in visions (Ezek. Ch.1); etc. Millions (perhaps as many as 2 to 5 million) in Israel heard the voice of Yahweh when he spoke from the mountain top. They asked Moses to go near and hear Yahweh, as they did not wish to hear him more, lest they should die (Ex. 20:18; Deut. 5:22-28)."
SOURCE: http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/760191381/various-thoughts-on-scriptures

One might also want to consider if it is more rewarding to literally see and hear FATHER Yahweh with our eyes and ears as opposed to seeing and hearing Him figuratively in the sense that one can understand His word.

BTW, I still do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth.

Frank4YAHWEH:

"None Have Seen the Father?

Jn. 5:37 applies only to the Jewish people to whom Yahshua spoke at that moment. The people who were present that day had never seen the Father's shape, nor heard his voice. A number of others have seen the form (shape or silhouette) of the Father, but not the features of his face. A few of these were Moses [Ex. 33:18-23; Nu.12:6-8]; seventy Elders of Israel (Ex. 24:10); Ezekiel, in visions (Ezek. Ch.1); etc. Millions (perhaps as many as 2 to 5 million) in Israel heard the voice of Yahweh when he spoke from the mountain top. They asked Moses to go near and hear Yahweh, as they did not wish to hear him more, lest they should die (Ex. 20:18; Deut. 5:22-28)."
SOURCE: http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/760191381/various-thoughts-on-scriptures

One might also want to consider if it is more rewarding to literally see and hear FATHER Yahweh with our eyes and ears as opposed to seeing and hearing Him figuratively in the sense that one can understand His word.

BTW, I still do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth.

what part of no one do you not understand?
you and me know the bible says if you see the father you cant live... you will die we all know that.

Aside the astras that Benlvino may add to those quotes he posted up there, it is very pertinent that frobel should reconcile what ben has asked him since frosbel said Jesus 'never preexisted his birth'.

frosbel:


So Jesus and John lied, people had actually seen GOD in the old testament, lol.


Mate quit you deception.

God is ONE Person, not THREE Persons.

so, you should at least explain those scriptures in the light of this John 1:18.

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.".
(John 1:18).

Frosbel cant just be evasive all the time when he is asked questions about christ preexistance.

*My 2 cent*

Frank4YAHWEH:

I do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth and I do not believe that frobel does either.

Nice answer if you don't believe Yeshau pre-existed His brith, definitely YHWH gave Moses the Ten Commandment.

2 Corin 3:7 "7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:"

This phrase "behold the face of Moses for the glory of his contenance;.." 'His contenance' tells us who Moses saw when the laws was given which is YHWH.

Now let's see the rest of the verses:
Verse "16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. It means if we believe in Yeshua we'll be able to behold his glory.

17 Now the Lord(Yeshua) is that Spirit(YHWH): and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all(as we believe in Yeshua), with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord(Yeshua), are changed into the same image (YHWH who Moses saw) from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord(Yeshua).

Frank4YAHWEH:

"None Have Seen the Father?

Jn. 5:37 applies only to the Jewish people to whom Yahshua spoke at that moment. The people who were present that day had never seen the Father's shape, nor heard his voice. A number of others have seen the form (shape or silhouette) of the Father, but not the features of his face. A few of these were Moses [Ex. 33:18-23; Nu.12:6-8]; seventy Elders of Israel (Ex. 24:10); Ezekiel, in visions (Ezek. Ch.1); etc. Millions (perhaps as many as 2 to 5 million) in Israel heard the voice of Yahweh when he spoke from the mountain top. They asked Moses to go near and hear Yahweh, as they did not wish to hear him more, lest they should die (Ex. 20:18; Deut. 5:22-28)."
SOURCE: http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/760191381/various-thoughts-on-scriptures

One might also want to consider if it is more rewarding to literally see and hear FATHER Yahweh with our eyes and ears as opposed to seeing and hearing Him figuratively in the sense that one can understand His word.

BTW, I still do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth.

what you belief will not give any body eternal life.

It is 'only' what the bible says that matters.

As such, no one cares about "your beliefs".

Address John 1:18.

And also address why Jesus had asked the Jews why Devid called the messiah "my lord if the messiah is the son of Devid" ?

You cant be selling emotions to people and think it is normal.

You know when you have a case, the scriptures comes very handy.

truthislight:

what you belief will not give any body eternal life.

It is 'only' what the bible says that matters.

As such, no one cares about "your beliefs".

Address John 1:18.

And also address why Jesus had asked the Jews why Devid called the messiah "my lord if the messiah is the son of Devid" ?

You cant be selling emotions to people and think it is normal.

You know when you have a case, the scriptures comes very handy.

he is going to translate the bible to suit what he believes... he is always translating bible. i ask him if his religion will make a bible so we can use it since only him knows all the right translations.

benalvino:

what part of no one do you not understand?
you and me know the bible says if you see the father you cant live... you will die we all know that.

I understand "no one" in the context and the time setting in which it was said. Those who it is said that they seen FATHER Yahweh face to face in the past did not see Him in His entirety.

Yes it is true that one can not see FATHER Yahweh in His fullness:

But you may not look directly at My face, for no one may see Me and live (Exodus 33:20) - Living Translation).

WEll, it seems that you are partially right, since you have only read a very small potion of what is actually being said in accordance with the context. This is a common practice among Trinitarians in taking a single verse out of context in an attempt to promote false doctrine. When they ignore the context, this in turn is taking away from His word. Now, continuing to read from verse 20:


Exodus 33:21-23
And Yahweh said, Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand upon a rock: When My esteem passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will remove my hand and you will see My back; but My face must not be seen."

One should not build a false doctrine out of one single verse taken out of context of what is actually being said, since we are instructed to live BY EVERY WORD that proceeds out of that mouth, not just a portion of what He has said.

Now, to Corinthians:

And not as Moshe, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Ysryl could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this time remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Messiah. But even unto this time, when Moshe is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it [their heart] shall turn to Yahweh, the vail shall be taken away. Now Yahweh is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of Yahweh is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the esteem of Yahweh, are being transformed into the same image from esteem to esteem, just as from Yahweh, the Spirit. Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of Yahweh deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of Yahweh.

This vail that was upon their heart is done away in Messiah, and now they can CLEARLY SEE in reading the old testament. This SEEING or HEARING is not with the eyes, but is in the figaritive sense in that one can now understand or perceive what is being said in Scripture [the "Old Testament"].

Frank4YAHWEH:

I understand "no one" in the context and the time setting in which it was said. Those who it is said that they seen FATHER Yahweh fgace to face in the past did not see Him in His entirety.

Yes it is true that one can not see FATHER Yahweh in His fullness:

But you may not look directly at My face, for no one may see Me and live (Exodus 33:20) - Living Translation).

WEll, it seems that you are partially rigjht since you have only read a very small potion of what is actually said in accordance with the context. This is a common practice among Trinitarians in taking a single verse out of context in an attempt to promote false doctrine. When they ignore the context, this in turn is taking away from his word. Now, continuing to read from verse 20:


Exodus 33:21-23
And Yahweh said, Behold, there is a place by Me, and you shall stand upon a rock: When My esteem passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. Then I will remove my hand and you will see My back; but My face must not be seen."

One should not build a false doctrine out of one single verse taken out of context of what is actually being said, since we are instructed to live BY EVERY WORD that proceeds out of that mouth, not just a portion of what He has said.

Genesis 32:30
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

benalvino:


Genesis 32:30
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

And as I had just made known "Those who it is said that they seen FATHER Yahweh face to face in the past did not see Him in His entirety." One's life is not preserved in LITERALLY SEEING FATHER Yahweh's face, since it says that when one does they can not live. Again, one must take into consideration whether it is more rewarding in LITERALLY SEEING FATHER Yahweh or SEEING as in understanding or perceiving His word. *In Corinthians that I had just previously posted it is not speaking of LITERALLY SEEING FATHER Yahweh, but is speaking of our understanding or perceiving what His word actually says which is in the so-called Old Testament."

*And not as Moshe, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Ysryl could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this time remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Messiah. But even unto this time, when Moshe is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it [their heart] shall turn to Yahweh, the vail shall be taken away. Now Yahweh is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of Yahweh is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the esteem of Yahweh, are being transformed into the same image from esteem to esteem, just as from Yahweh, the Spirit. Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of Yahweh deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of Yahweh.

This vail that was upon their heart is done away in Messiah, and now they can CLEARLY SEE in reading the old testament. This SEEING or HEARING is not with the eyes, but is in the figaritive sense in that one can now understand or perceive what is being said in Scripture [the "Old Testament"].

^^^^
you like to explain your self to oblivion.... lol look the bold again from the 2 verses below
"No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us." 1John 4:12
And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form (John 5:37).

benalvino: ^^^^
you like to explain your self to oblivion.... lol look the bold again from the 2 verses below
"No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us." 1John 4:12
And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form (John 5:37).

Again, when Yahshua said "YOU have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form" he was speaking to the people who were present with him at the time in saying "YOU". And 1 Yahcnanan [John] 4:12 is also in reference to the people at that time. This is evident in that it clearly says in Scripture that those in the past have seen FATHER Yahweh, but not in His fullness. One must also take into consideration that SEEING and HEARING is not always in reference to LITERALLY seeing and hearing with one's eyes and ears, but is also in reference to what one SEES and HEARS in a figurative sense in that they understand or perceive what FATHER Yahweh actually says and in the things that He has created:

For since the creation of the world Yahweh's invisible qualities--His eternal power and powerful nature--have been clearly SEEN, being UNDERSTOOD from what has been made, so that people are without excuse (Romans 1:20).

The heavens declare the esteem of Yahweh; the skies proclaim the work of His hands (Psalm 19:1).

Just as you said "Jesus [in the so-called "New Testamet"] [taught that] no one has seen the father or [heard] his voice... In the old testament people said they saw YHWH face to face...

I see you like to explain your false doctrine to oblivion to the point that you would rather Scripture contradict itself rather than harmonize!

I think it is about time that you remove the vail from your heart and take FATHER Yahweh's instruction [torah "law"] to heart!

benalvino: ^^^^
you like to explain your self to oblivion.... lol look the bold again from the 2 verses below
"No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us." 1John 4:12
And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form (John 5:37).

embodiment of contradiction !

frosbel:

embodiment of contradiction !

Yes it is! That's the so-called "Holy Trinty"! We are not going to take it though, are we?

Frank4YAHWEH:

Again, when Yahshua said "You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form" he was speaking to the people who were present with him at the time. And 1 Yahcnanan [John] 4:12 is also in reference to the people at that time. This is evident in that it clearly says in Scripture that those in the past have seen FATHER Yahweh, but not in His fullness. One must aslo take into consideration that SEEING and HEARING is not always in reference to LITERALLY seeing and hearing with one's eyes and ears, but is also in reference to what one SEES and HEARS in a figurative sense in that they understand or perceive what FATHER Yahweh actually says and in the things that He has created:

For since the creation of the world Yahweh's invisible qualities--His eternal power and powerful nature--have been clearly SEEN, [u]being UNDERSTOOD from what has been made[/b], so that people are without excuse Romans 1:20).

The heavens declare the esteem of Yahweh; the skies proclaim the work of His hands (Psalm 19:1).

I see you like to explain your false doctrine to oblivion to the point that you would rather Scripture contradict itself rather than harmonize!

I think it is about time that you remove the vail from your heart and take FATHER Yahweh's instruction [torah "law"] to heart!

haa... yes... possibly.

The resurrected saints will definitely see Yahweh as they serve Him in His Kingdom. Note the following:

In Psalm 17:15 Dawid wrote, "As for me, I will behold Your face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Your likeness." In Mattithyah [Matthew] 5:8 Yahshua said, "Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see Yahweh." Revelation 22:3-4 tells us: "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of Yahweh and of the Lamb shall be in it; and *His servants shall serve Him: And they shall see His face; and His Name [shall be] in their foreheads."

*Note that Yahshua is the prophesied 'HUMBLE SERVANT' of his and our FATHER Yahweh and he will also serve FATHER Yahweh. The fact that Yahshua will also serve his and our FATHER Yahweh proves that without a doubt that Yahshua IS NOT his and our FATHER Yahweh!

It is only the "pure in heart (the righteous)" that will see (percieve or understand) Yahweh! HalleluYAHWEH! (Praise be to Yahweh with outstreched hands!) \0/

can you people help boomark and every other JW understand that gods in psalm 82:1 are the judges? and not God in respect to what YHWH is. like God. i try to tell him Elohim is translated as great, mighty etc but him blind him eyes

https://www.nairaland.com/1339284/polytheists-vs-trinity/15#17308017

@ben please kindly stop giving frank4yahweh and frosbel armor to blur this thread. They have continually danced around heb1.8 and ps45.6 trying in vain to recreate those verses out of context, unfortuately they have failed. So once again, i say anti trinitarian have not proved that heb1.8 by extension ps45.6 was not speaking about the Son.

hisblud: @ben please kindly stop giving frank4yahweh and frosbel armor to blur this thread. They have continually danced around heb1.8 and ps45.6 trying in vain to recreate those verses out of context, unfortuately they have failed. So once again, i say anti trinitarian have not proved that heb1.8 by extension ps45.6 was not speaking about the Son.

Thanks for calling it armour in opposition to your blured, foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine. It is you who that is trying in vain to recreate verses out of context and in turn have brutally failed in promoting your false doctrine. You are getting owned on your own thread that you started!

Keep that "armour" coming that we are to use to fight off the wiles of the devil Ben!

You say "... anti trinitarian have not proved that heb1.8 by extension ps45.6 was not speaking about the Son. That is simply because you refuse to believe what FATHER Yahweh says that it was He "ALONE", "BY HIMSELF, with "NO ONE BESIDE HIM" Who created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM and that Yahshua is NEVER RECORDED in ANY translation of the so-called "New Testament" that he had created ANYTHING! Hebrews 1:8 by extension of Psalm 45:6 is speaking about both the FATHER and His SON. When it speaks concerning Who it is that created, it is speaking of FATHER Yahweh and not His SON Yahshua.

BTW, where is all that truth that you said that you would be presenting?

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

Frank4YAHWEH:

Thanks for calling it armour in opposition to your blured, foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine. It is you who that is trying in vain to recreate verses out of context and in turn have brutally failed in promoting your false doctrine. You are getting owned on your own thread that you started!

Keep that "armour" coming that we are to use to fight off the wiles of the devil Ben!

You say "... anti trinitarian have not proved that heb1.8 by extension ps45.6 was not speaking about the Son. That is simply because you refuse to believe what FATHER Yahweh says that it was He "ALONE", "BY HIMSELF, with "NO ONE BESIDE HIM" Who created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM and that Yahshua is NEVER RECORDED in ANY translation of the so-called "New Testament" that he had created ANYTHING! Hebrews 1:8 by extension of Psalm 45:6 is speaking about both the FATHER and His SON. When it speaks concerning Who it is that created, it is speaking of FATHER Yahweh and not His SON Yahshua.

BTW, where is all that truth that you said that you would be presenting?

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

To the bolded, ok lets start again...


Why did the Blessed Holy Spirit move His secretary (david) to use "Elohim" in ps45.2,6 instead of JUDGE [Hashopet][Haa'²lohiym], nor gODS['²lohiym] nor ANGEL [mee'²lohiym] thus differentiating the above from God [Elohiym] literally?

Can you help give the WHY? because it seems you feel/claim you are more knowledgable than the Inspirer!

hisblud:

To the bolded, ok lets start again...


Why did the Blessed Holy Spirit move His secretary (david) to use "Elohim" in ps45.2,6 instead of JUDGE [Hashopet][Haa'²lohiym], nor gODS['²lohiym] nor ANGEL [mee'²lohiym] thus differentiating the above from God [Elohiym] literally?

Can you help give the WHY? because it seems you feel/claim you are more knowledgable than the Inspirer!

First off, the TRANSLATION that you are reading is not the original and Dawid was not responsible for any translations. And I have told you time and time again that the word 'elohim' is not always in reference to FATHER Yahweh. I have also showed you that elohim can be translated as "judges." Again, it all depends on the context in determining how it is to be translated.

Frank4YAHWEH:

First off, the TRANSLATION that you are reading is not the original and Dawid was not responsible for any translations. And I have told you time and time again that the word 'elohim' is not always in reference to FATHER Yahweh. I have also showed you that elohim can be translated as "judges." Again, it all depends on the contyext in determining how it is to bve translated.

why is it that anything that doesnt fit with your bad beliefs is wrong? why is it that only you know how to spot right translation?
how do you translate colossians 1:15 as jesus came into existence when mary gave birth to him. How will you also translate phil 2:6?

in addition... what is the context?

benalvino:

why is it that anything that doesnt fit with your bad beliefs is wrong? why is it that only you know how to spot right translation?
how do you translate colossians 1:15 as jesus came into existence when mary gave birth to him. How will you also translate phil 2:6?

in addition... what is the context?

I do not have bad beliefs I hold fast to that which is true. Who said that only I know how to spot right translation? Certainly not me!


"Jesus IS God!" is a bad and unscriptural doctrine that is untrue and Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh is the righteous Scriptural doctrine that is true. I have also made it known that I do not give reference to FATHER Yahweh or to His SON as "Elohim ['God']". I give reference to FATHER Yahweh as Almighty or Mighty One and to His SON as being a mighty one who receives his strength, power (authority), or might from His and our FATHER Yahweh. Yahshua can not be the "Almighty" since, he clearly made it known that his and our FATHER yahweh is GREATER than he, One who says that there is another greater than he can not be "Almighty".

Frank4YAHWEH:

"Jesus IS God!" is a bad and unscriptural doctrine and Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh is the righteous Scriptural doctrine. I have also made it known that I do not give reference to FATHER Yahweh or to His SON as "Elohim ['God']". I give reference to FATHER Yahweh as Almighty or Mighty One and to His SON as being a mighty one who receives his strength, power (authority), or might from His and our FATHER Yahweh. Yahshua can not be the "Almighty" since, he clearly made it known that his and our FATHER yahweh is GREATER than he, One who says that there is another greater than he can not be "Almighty".

the question you were ask is different from the answer you are giving... I ask again...
colossians 1:15 - if jesus never exist before how can you explain that?
phil 2:6 - if he never exist how can he exist as God then take the form of a servant?

benalvino:

the question you were ask is different from the answer you are giving... I ask again...
colossians 1:15 - if jesus never exist before how can you explain that?
phil 2:6 - if he never exist how can he exist as God then take the form of a servant?

The son is THE IMAGE of the INVISIBLE Yahweh, the firstborn over all creation. Being an image of Yahweh does not make one Yahweh. Yahshua being the firstborn of all craetion is not in reference to his being born or created from the beginning before anything else was craeted, but is in reference to his being the the first fruit of the "first fruits" being born from the dead. He is the first of all cretaion to be "born again" the first to be resurrected from the dead to live life eternally.

Yahshua did not exist as "God" then take up the from of a servant. Being in the "form" of Yahweh is also not being Yahweh or "God."

THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF YAHSHUA
Rev. 3:14 & Col. 1:15
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/757756028/the-pre-existence-of-yahshua

The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/756934946/the-pre-existence