hisblud: Hi guys, i will admonish we revert back to the main issue here. Heb1.8 and ps45.6 is proof that Yashua is God not god, lesser God, Judge. In fact YASHUA IS YHWH. Frank has failed to convince me that ps45.6, from which the Hebrew writer quoted heb1.8, was not refering to Yashua. His scholarly references are not in agreement wit each other, each claiming vs 6 means different things. But on closer examination of the literal hebrew of ps 45.6, it says a different THING from those scholars. Conclusion, anti trinitarians have no base to deny the Godhood of Yashua using ps45.6.

Well, the problem is, I go strictly by what Scripture ACTUALLY SAYS and you have failed miserably in presenting to me where Scripture from ANY translation ACTUALLY SAYS "Jesus IS God!" or where in ANY translation of the so-called "New Testament" where the Messaiah is ACTUALLY RECORDED AS SAYING "I am God!"

Nowhere in ANY Scripture translation am I ever asked to confess and believe "Jesus IS God!" This righteous instruction is in completee OPPOSITION (note that the name Satan mean OPPOSER) to what these foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic prechers ask one to confess and believe. What I am ACTUALLY asked to believe IN SCRIPTURE is that Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh, not the foolish statement "Jesus IS God!". Trinitarians can not get this simple truth through their thick heads, since they have been brainwashed to believe that if they do not confess and believe in the "Deity of Jesus Christ" that they will suffer as a LIVING spirit being in eternal torment for all eternity in a place called "Hell." What poppycock!

Oh Hell!
http://www.angelfire.com/hi2/YAHWEHFrank/OhHell.html

sunkoye: I dint ask you to sit-up for frosbel. Frank...take a nomal bible and read with open mind, exlusive of extra materials. Pls do, cos U are really mixing tins up. Start frm John. Cheers

A "normal bible"? This statement itself tells me that you have no idea what you are talking about!

I never said that you asked me to sit-up for frosbel, whatever it is that you mean by that.

I study Scripture on a daily basis and I use various translations of Scripture in my studying. When I started studying Scripture I was instructed by a Trinitarian to start my study from the book of John. Why start from the book of John? Why not start from the very beginning just like any other book or series of books? I later found out why many of these false and deceptive Christian preachers instruct one to start studying Scripture from the book of John. When someone instructs me to start my study of Scripture from the book of John now, a graet big red flag goes up telling me that this person is out to derceive someone into believeing the foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctine "Jesus IS God!"

sunkoye: shdemidemi, trust me u and frank are not on the same page. U guyz have different religion and spiritual background. Sure he has his own edited bible and allies of written books and also riding on frosbel's identity crisis. U will always earn my respect. Regards sir.

I do not have my "own edited bible" and of course I have my allies of written books that I agree with as do you. I am not "riding on frosbel's identity crisis"! In fact, I do not even know if he has an identity crisis or not and I would not know the first thing about what you mean by riding an identity crisis. No one asked you for a psychological evaluation of frosbel and it is quite obvious to me that you are not qualified to do so. I have not seen the least bit of meaning in anything that you have posted yet!

benalvino1:

So the bible is foolishness to you? who was the father referring to in that verse?

Did I ever say that the Scripture is foolish to me? No! What verse or passage are you giving reference to in asking me who the Father was referring to?

benalvino1:
but why are you running from this?
Who was all things created for? The father or the son? you guys should ponder on this and see how you get around it.

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil (Prov. 16:4).
the above says that all things were made for YAHWEH

what does paul think about that? lets look are colossians
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him (Col. 1:16).
paul says it was created for Jesus here.

Then we have this passage:
So I said: 'Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days; your years go on through all generations. In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded. But you remain the same, and your years will never end' (Psa. 102:24-27).

this is a problem for you guys that says Jesus is not God because this verse says the heaven is the works of his hand too:
But about the Son he says, Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom .... He also says, In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end (Heb. 1:8,10-12).

Psa. 102:24-27 is written about the eternal God, but the same Scripture is applied to Jesus in the NT! How can this be unless Jesus is YHWH?
you guys should ponder...

I am not running from anything! I am simply teaching what Scripture ACTUALLY SAYS! When it comes to Who created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM, FATHER Yahweh speaks to me through His inspired prophetic word and says that He "ALONE", "BY HIMSELF" and with "NO ONE BESIDE HIM" created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. Not once in the so-called "New Testament" will you ever find FATHER Yahweh's SON Yahshua recorded as proclaiming that he had created ANYTHING! I choose to believe what Scripture teaches and not the foolisness that you teach!

hisblud:

yes to which, moshe or YHWH?

Yes!

hisblud:

twisting scriptures to deny the original sin....

No, I would not be twisting Scriptures, since nowhere in Scripture is the "Original Sin" doctrine taught. It would in fact be you who is twisting Scripture in promoting this false doctrine.

shdemidemi:

Just check up the meaning of appear and see if the invisible God can appear without an image. Simple!

Well, that does not tell me how you believe the Hebrew definition or definitions translated into our English language as 'appear' differs from the English definition or definitions, right?

shdemidemi:

My friend, you can help yourself with the Hebrew word used and the meaning of the word 'appear'.Don't make up your mind with half baked information.

Wow! Someone who believes the fooish doctrine "Jesus IS God!" and that one can be their own father and that one can be their own son telling me to not make up my mind with half baked information!


And how do you believe the Hebrew word translated into our English language as 'appear' differs from the English definition of this word? FYI, I do not read the Scripture in Hebrew, but in the English language that I speak. Hebrew words also have diverse definitions just as our English words do.

Frank4YAHWEH:

The "Original Sin" doctrine is a false doctrine that is not taught in Scripture. We do not inherit sin from Adam and Eve!

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment of the father's iniquity; nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be on himself." (Ezekiel 18:20; cf. vss. 19-32).

Many other passages also show the impossibility of transferring the guilt of sin (Yeremyah 31:27-30; Deuteronomy 24:16; Galatians 6:5).

hisblud:
Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
KJV

This verse does not say that sin is passed on to all men, but that "death" is passed unto all men. One receives the wage of death for they themselves comitting sin. The Scriptural definition of sin is the disobedience of FATHER Yahweh's instruction [torah, "law"] (1 Yahchanan [John] 3:4). Yes, all HAVE sinned, but one has the option to turn from sin and be washed as white as snow and in turn they are then without sin.

shdemidemi:

'FATHER Yahweh' appeared as what, visible or invisible?

Well, it seems you are arguing that the word 'appear' can only be defined as being visible, but as is the case with most words they can have more than one specific definition. The word 'appear' can also be defined as "to be obvious or easily perceived; be clear or made clear by evidence." That being said, I do not take everything that the book of Genesis or the Scripturte as a whole for that matter, in a literal sense anyway, since I do not believe that snakes or serpents can literally talk to humans in their own language.

shdemidemi:

I did not suggest Christ could be an image, I know Christ has always been the visible image of God from the beginning through scriptures. I don't see why I need the bible to tell me God's image did the walking and talking in that verse when I have been told through the secrets and mysteries revealed to Apostle Paul.




Ofcourse he has always been the image of the invisible God from the beginning (whenever that was), he didn't become the image when he came in the likeness of sinful flesh.




Did you get the question?

Only a visible image can appear according to the definition of the word 'appear'. So, who appeared in Gen18:1?

FATHER Yahweh! Did you get that answer this time? It seems that you missed the answer the last time!

hisblud:

Briliant! Frosbel... Yes you have done a great job of bringing out scripture to defend your position, instead of avoiding questions. For me it is an honor to delve deeper to the word of God.

Now this throws up for you a deeper challenge, if Yashua, is according to the above verse been portrayed "LITERALLY" that He was the seed [sperma] of david, thus you are insinuating that Yashua cannot be the Second and Last Adam, because He would have sin in Him as Adam which was passed to Him. But God forbide!

Furthermore, if by your position, that Yashua is "LITERALLY" the seed of david, you are thus claiming that Yashua was a liar when He said this

Meaning what satan has a hold on the descendant of adam is becasue of SIN corruption, but of Yashua, NO SIN in Him!

Another problem arises, you would be denying the virgin birth of Christ, thus claiming that Joseph of the seed of david was His father... far far foul!


And this where we trinitarian have a strong base than you, in that we dont try to hide/mix/deny His Humanity with His Divinity when the scripture speaks of His Humanity in context and verse, we accept it; when it Speaks about His Divinity [God], we take it as been just that and NOTHING MORE but you on the other hand, have tried to recreate Him as just a mere man and nothing more, denying His Divinity.



Enigma, quote mk 12:35-37 for you and it seems you ignored it, i quote again the matthew version for you



where Yashua asked the pharasees how can He be david's Lord and at the same time Son of David, were they able to answer Him, except if you could try!

Thus you are in a real dilema to either accept that Yashua as born from the Seed [Sperma] of God or believe He was a mere man who had the sin of adam passed to Him via david from Joseph... For me God forbide.

The "Original Sin" doctrine is a false doctrine that is not taught in Scripture. We do not inherit sin from Adam and Eve!

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment of the father's iniquity; nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be on himself." (Ezekiel 18:20; cf. vss. 19-32).

Many other passages also show the impossibility of transferring the guilt of sin (Yeremyah 31:27-30; Deuteronomy 24:16; Galatians 6:5).

shdemidemi:

My dear brother, a Christian is anybody who has the Spirit of God in him. Knowing the attribute of God and the godhead does not make you more or less a Christian, it simply means you are growing in the knowledge of who God really is.

Those who have Father Yahweh's spirit are guided by His inspired prophetic word and not by so-called "Church" doctrines of men and those who are guided by FATHER Yahweh's spirit would not believe n "3 Gods", but would instead believe and confess that Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh as Scripture clearly asks them to do. Also, they would not believe such foolishness as that one can be their own father and at the same time be their own son. They would believe that Yahsua came in the flesh as a man and not as a "God-Man" and that he was tempted as we are in every way, yet without sin, meaning that he was in obedience to his and our FATHER Yahweh instruction [torah, "law"]. They would follow Yahshua's example and also be obedient to FATHER Yahweh's instruction [torah, "law"]. They would also believe that Yahshiua had the same origin as all men and that he did not pre-exist his birth.

"For it was fitting that he [Yahweh], for Whom and by Whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to esteem, should make [Yahshua] the pioneer of their redemption perfect through suffering. For he [Yahshua] who sets apart and those who are set apart have all ONE ORIGIN. That is why he [Yahshua] is not ashamed to call them brethern, saying, I will proclaim Your Name [Yahweh's name] to my brethern, in the midst of the congregation I will praise You" (Heb. 2:10-12; Ps. 22:22 RSV - Edited).

Yahshua is my brother, not my "God."! Note that Yahshua says that in the midst of the congregation he will praise his and our FATHER Yahweh. What Yahshua said here proves without a doubt that he is not FATHER Yahweh ["God"]!

hisblud: @frank interesting yo! In ps 45.2, 6 , is it moshe that is been spoken of or YHWH?

Yes!

sunkoye: hummm......u did nt believe in christ pre-exitence.....tell me wat u now believe?

I have never believed that the Messiah pre-existed his birth or that he was "God" and at this point in time I have the same belief, since all thoughout Scripture FATHER Yahweh's inspired prophetic word speaks of the coming promised Messiah as a future event. I was taught that Yahshua was "God" and that he pre-existed his birth in the Christian religion that I was baptized into at the age of 12, but I never believed such foolisness, since I had already read and studied Scripture and knew these doctrines to be false. I did not find out till after I was baptized that they believed such foolishness. I found this out when the preacher instucted us to begin our study of Scripture from the book of John and from there he attempted to decieve by saying "Jesus is the Word in John 1:1." I believe this is the reason many preachers instruct that one start their study of Scripture from the book of John in order to deceived one with the false so-called "Holy Trinity" doctrine or the Oneness doctrine by twisting and perverting what it actaully says. I believe that one should start their study of Scripture from the very beginning just like any the book or series of books.

shdemidemi:


I never mentioned that that particular verse mentioned the image of God. I asked if Christ could be the same image walking and talking because we now know from the account of the New Testament that Christ is actually the visible image of the invisible God.



Genesis 18
King James Version (KJV)
18 [b]And the Lord appeared [/b]unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;


Please check the meaning of appeared as used in this verse and tell me what you come up with.

You just suggested that "Christ could be the same IMAGE walking and talking" in Genesis. Again, there is no mention of an IMAGE of FATHER Yahweh walking and talking in Genesis. There is also no explanation in Scripture that these verses convey that this was not in fact FATHER Yahweh Himself, but instead was the Messiah in His image. The promised Messiah did not come until the appointed time. He did not pre-exist His birth. There was no Messiah as an actaul being that existing in Genesis, but only in FATHER Yahweh's plan for the future. Genesis 18:1 is clearly in reference to FATHER Yahweh and not to His SON as a pre-existent being. Where "the LORD" appears in translations with "LORD" in all caps, this is where our Heavenly FATHER and Creator's Name was supposed to appear where the Jewish Masoretic scribes removed it and replaced His Name with inferior names/titles.

Yahshua is our advocate, intercesor, mediator and the spokesman of his and our FATHER Yahweh's word in this last time period. Yahshua was not a spokesman of FATHER Yahweh's word in the beginning, but only in this last time period. It was the prophets of old who were the spokesmen of FATHER Yahweh's word in the beginning before His SON Yahshua came into existence or was born as Hebrews 1:1-2 make perfectly clear.

sunkoye: ah....mystery ke! see, there are factual mystery.tins i still pray to know, insight i still yearn for!....but wat we are discusing here are basics...cos without the Spirit’s help there can be no grasp of the message of Scripture, no conviction of the truth of Scripture, and no faith in the God of Scripture. Without the Spirit, nothing is possible but spiritual blindness and unbelief.
It follows that the we must approach the study of Scripture in humble dependence on the Holy Spirit, sure that he can learn from it nothing of spiritual significance unless he is taught of God. Confidence in one’s own powers of discernment is an effective barrier to spiritual understanding.. God bless u frosbel!

The sword of the spirit is FATHER Yahweh's inspired prophetic word. This is the weapon that is an integral part of the armour that one must put on to fight off the wiles of the devil. This is the weapon that proceeded from Yahshua's mouth and the weapon that should proceed from our mouths. This weapon is Father Yahweh's word and nowhere in His word will you ever find the deceptive words or word phrases "Holy Trinity", "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost", "Jesus IS God!", Jesus is Creator, or "Jesus pre-existed his birth." Those who promote such words and word phrases are spiritually discerned, since these words have not proceeded from the mouth of FATHER Yahweh Whose every word we are to live by:

Yahshua answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of Yahweh'" (Mattithyah [Matthew] 4:4).

All Scripture is given by inspiration of Yahweh, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of Yahweh may be perfect, THROUGHLY FURNISHED unto all righteous works (1 Timothy 3:16-17).

The last verse here when it says "ALL Scripture ..." is in reference to the so-called "Old Testament", since the so-called "New Testament" had not yet been written and compiled at the time this was said. This is the Scripture that Yahshua, his disciples, and the Apostles lived by. Note that it says that one "may be perfect, THROUGHLY FURNISHED unto ALL righteous works" with these Scripture alone.

shdemidemi:

My dear brother, a Christian is anybody who has the Spirit of God in him. Knowing the attribute of God and the godhead does not make you more or less a Christian, it simply means you are growing in the knowledge of who God really is.

I myself certainly do not want to be growing in knowledge of who you think YOUR "God" really is!

sunkoye: frosbel, we are not sayin Jesus is not the Son of God....we are saying it takes a God to be the Son of God. Pls understand!

Any simpleton knows that one can not be their own father and that one can not be their own son! Where in Scripture does it ever teach that "it takes a God to be the Son of God."? That is just plain foolisness!

shdemidemi:

I am in no way saying the father is not part of this, I am saying an image would be needed for an invisible God to walk and speak, do you understand?

There is no mention of an image of Yahweh walking and speaking in Genesis! You are simply trying to force Yahshua into existence in the beginning as an actaul being by adding your own foolish reasoning and understanding.

hisblud: ok lets not use "Elohim" as hebrew name for the Hebrew Deity, let use the Name before the Hebrew accepted pagan name, which is YHWH. And that is what we will use now. In ps 45.2,6 the name YHWH was used and this is the ONLY Name of God. Therefore it cannot be a name of angels, gods, idol or JUDGES in the context use. Thus why are you deceitfully replacing YHWH in verse 6 instead of keeping it what the hebrew writter wrote in ps45.6? Is it ok by your scholarly post for ps45.2 to be YHWH but not YHWH in v6?

Moshe was given reference to as an 'elohim' ["god"] in translation. Is he Yahweh?

As I have previously made known, the Hebrew word 'elohim' (although not originally Hebrew as a whole) in translation can refer to Yahweh, angels, JUDGES, gods, idols, and even mere human beings such as Moshe. It all depends on the content in determining how it is to be properly translated. I have also made known that 'elohim' simply signifies strenght, might, power (authority) and is often given as an attributive title and not as a name.

shdemidemi:
Genesis 3
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

We both agree God is invisible and Christ is his visible image according to scriptures. In the above passage, you will notice you have 'voice' and 'walk'. Definite features of a visible image, couldn't this be the Christ?

No, this verse is in reference to FATHER Yahweh which is obvious by observing the context from the very beginning.

hisblud: eya i pity you. Wit all that you wrote stressing that YHWH is the original name that the hebrew abandoned for the caananite pagan name - Elohim. Ok now i accept its YHWH. Ok in ps 45.2,6 YHWH was used, why are you accepting that Judge, according to one of the scholars you agreed wit, should be in v6. Yet YHWH is YHWH it does not mean any angel, judge? Stop dodging.

Moshe was given reference to as an 'elohim' ["god"] in translation. Is he Yahweh?

As I have previously made known, the Hebrew word 'elohim' (although not originally Hebrew as a whole) in translation can refer to Yahweh, angels, JUDGES, gods, idols, and even mere human beings such as Moshe. It all depends on the content in determining how it is to be properly translated. I have also made known that 'elohim' simply signifies strenght, might, power (authority) and is often given as an attributive title and not as a name.

sunkoye: I knew it!

You knew what? You call what masking?

shdemidemi:


bro, if you check your reply properly, you will notice you didn't answer my question. Could you please answer the question bro.

Why would I continue to use it to prove points if I did not believe that Yahshua, his disciples and the Apostles were not inspired by FATHER Yahweh? Stop asking me such silly questions when the answer is quite obvious from what I have posted.

shdemidemi: @ frank

Do you believe the new testament is the word of God?

Did not Yahshua speak the words of his and our FATHER Yahweh and not his own words? Yes, in the so-called "New Testament" Yahshua makes statements that prove that he is not his and our FATHER Yahweh, but is in fact His SON.

hisblud:
@frank from that long discuss you gave, you are saying instead of the word Elohim or God, it should be YHWH in vs 2 & 6 respectively where the Word God appears. Ok now my question is, if by your own submission, YHWH is the correct word, why are you depending on scholars to change YHWH in v6 to Judge, while leaving out v2 as YHWH? Are you not being deceptive? Why change YHWH to another Name?

I did not change Yahweh to another name! As I have previously made known, the Hebrew word (although not originally Hebrew as a whole) 'elohim' in translation can refer to Yahweh, angels, JUDGES, gods, idols, and even mere human beings. It all depends on the content in determining how it is to be properly translated.

sunkoye: frank as it is...am nt sure ur guide is bible. Ur are so physical and literal with all ur assumptions. U are comparing the SON in divine concept to Son in physical realm. See, the Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God,” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death. Regards

As Scripture as my guide, nowhere in the so-called "New Testament" will you ever find Yahshua recorded as proclaiming that he is "God." This is a fact!

No, Yahhsua had to be a man just like us so that he could empathize with our weaknesses which is sin (disobedience to FATHER Yahweh's instruction [torah, law]).

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin (Hebrews 4:15).

frosbel: Bottom line is that Trintarians have 3 gods not 1, there is no amount of logic twisting that can negate this fact.

Yes, I have heard many Trintarians say that they do not have 3 "Gods", but then they turn right around and say "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost." I definately count 3 "Gods" here!

shdemidemi:

Bro, is the bible our guide?

The Scripture (FATHER Yahweh's inspired prophetic word) is my guide! Have you got any more foolish questions?

shdemidemi:



I did not say It, the bible did, Isn't the bible our guide?

I did not say you said it! I was referring to Scripture saying that Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh and that Scripture does not say that he is his and our FATHER Yahweh.