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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Culture / Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. (249832 Views)
Why Dont Yorubas Claim Istekiri, The Way Igbos Claim Ikwerre, Delta Igbo? / Delta Igbo,bendel Igbo,ikwerre Igbo,do They Really Matter To The Igbo Nation? / Who Is An Igbo/what Makes Someone An Igbo? (2) (3) (4)
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Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by Obiagu1(m): 6:04am On May 30, 2011 |
When the early missionaries wanted to translate the bible to Igbo, they first used Bonny (Ngwa). Those Ngwa people that worked with them to write that bible and those that were later taught with that bible with Igbo written on it didn't object to them and say, hey, wait a minute, we are not Igbo! So many things don't add up if you try to claim that the people were not known as Igbo. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ChinenyeN(m): 7:46am On May 30, 2011 |
First let me say that if nothing else, we can all simply agree that without Europeans, we would likely not have the 'Igbo' identity as we now know it. That is a no-brainer, and I will continue to stress that this fact alone is actually my only point in this entire discussion. Like I stated earlier, the WHAT is not in question. We all agree on that. People just want to spend so much attention on the HOW, and the HOW is actually not my concern, but for the sake of discussion, I'll go ahead and give as thorough a response as I can. Here it is below. Alright, well. I don't know all there is to know. So bear with me, though I do feel that I've learned a sufficient amount from the much I've researched. The use of Eboe/Heebo is noted in the 18th century. No one knows for sure if such is mentioned before the 18th century, and we can't really say, since we don't really note documentation of Eboe/Heebo at that time, but we begin noticing it in the 18th century, and by the 19th century, Europeans had begun extensively writing on 'Eboe'/'Heebo' people. We also note that at this time (18th/19th century), Arochukwu had gotten into the slave business and had begun raiding northern Igbo (Eboe/Heebo) communities, selling them to Bonny and Calabar. These 'Eboe'/'Heebo' people were then sent to Freetown, Sierre Leone. Now, for the Ngwa, early journals and documentation specifically note 'Ungua' or 'Carabali Ungua'. The Ngwa, along with other southern groups like Echee, were all referred to as 'Carabali' not 'Eboe'/'Heebo', and were sold and sent to Havana, Cuba at around the 17th century. The 'Eboe'/'Heebo' though, noted around the 18th century were sent to Freetown, Sierre Leone. Many ['Eboe'/'Heebo'] were also sent to the British Colonies and the West Indies. It is there at Sierre Leone that you see the name 'Ibo Town'. You don't note such in Havana, Cuba though. You also hear of Ibo landing in Georgia. No such reference though is made in Havana, Cuba. Haitians in the West Indies also have a song in which they deify their respective groups, and in one such deification you hear of 'Igbo'. All these places which feature the use of 'Igbo' had slaves who primarily/predominantly originated from 'Eboe'/'Heebo' (northern Igbo people/hinterland) areas. But amongst the earlier 'Carabali' slave groups (composed primarily of southern Igbo people), you do not hear of the 'Eboe'/'Heebo', and as such, you do not hear of things such as an 'Ibo Town' in Havana, or other things which refer to 'Ibo'. Going back to present day Nigeria, hinterland (northern Igbo people) 'Eboe'/'Heebo' slaves had begun populating Bonny, and it is during this time (the 19th century) that you begin to notice European visitors (like Captain Hugh Crow) referring to Bonny as Eboe/Heebo (this is because of the significant number of hinterland Eboe/Heebo slaves). Before then (before the 19th century), Bonny had only been known to Europeans as Kuleba, Okuloma, Obani, Bany, and Bonny. By this time also (19th century), Ibo Town in Sierra Leone was established. It was there at Ibo Town, Sierra Leone that people like Crowther (the Yoruba man who is well-known for promoting written Igbo, specifically the Isuama-centered one) learned of the word 'Ibo' and began applying it to everyone who sounded like the 'Eboe'/'Heebo' (i.e. the Isuama and other northern Igbo groups). It is also here at Sierra Leone that 'Ibo' words (what the inhabitants of Ibo Town spoke) were collected in the 'Polyglotta Africans' (a comparative collection of vocabulary from different African languages spoken in Freetown). In the same 19th century, Crowther and co. travelled to Nigeria, with the first 'Ibo' book, the Isuama-Ibo Primer (also, the first Bible translation was in Onitsha, it was not Bonny Igbo that they first used). Now, northern Igbo groups (Isuama included) were obviously more prominent in Sierra Leone than southern groups (this is explicitly stated by Crowther and co.), and it has already been established that northern Igbo groups are the ones who actively used 'Igbo' precolonially. So, considering the significant population of the northern Igbo groups over southern groups, and the continued of use of 'Igbo' at Sierra Leone (Ibo Town, for example) by the more prominent northern Igbo groups, it became easy for Europeans to begin associating all who spoke something recognizably similar with those northern elements in Sierra Leone, as 'Ibo', particularly since they lived at 'Ibo Town'. Then by the 20th century, what we now know as 'Igboland' was called 'Ibo country', by Europeans, and the groups of 'Ibo country' were called 'Ibo-speaking' (note, they were not called 'Ibo' per se, just 'Ibo speaking'). This was so for two reasons, 1) when the Europeans came and began propagating 'Ibo' throughout Igboland, they came to find out that various/many groups in the area denied that they were 'Ibo', though 2) they all spoke something similar with the 'Ibo' of 'Ibo Town', Sierra Leone (making them Ibo-speaking). Then, by the mid-20th century, 'Igbo' had accepted the European use of 'Ibo', and by the 1960s the 'Igbo' themselves began perpetuating it by publishing material on the 'Igbo' people, 'Igbo' language, and 'Igbo' culture. No such material existed before the mid-20th century though. Finally, the main idea behind it all: The understanding of 'Igbo' as we know it, originated from outside of Igboland, was propagated by Europeans, imported into Igboland and then adopted and perpetuated by 'Igbo' people themselves. Honestly, such ought not be news to anyone who is familiar with this topic. So there you have it. Now, I'm not looking for agreement from anyone, just understanding, and I just hope that I wrote this simply enough that it can be easily understood. If there is ANYTHING that you are not sure of (as in, my wording or whatever) do feel free to say so, so that I can find another way to reword it. Much of the confusion in a discussion is because people aren't on the same page. If you just choose to continue arguing, assuming that you understand what I mean, then our discussion goes nowhere. We need to be on the same page first before we can even begin telling each other who is wrong and who is right. That's common sense. So please, do make sure you read for comprehension, and speak up on ANY and EVERYTHING you feel iffy about, in terms of understanding. Otherwise, I don't see why we should really continue uselessly going back and forth. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by lakal(m): 3:58pm On May 30, 2011 |
Notes on the Ibo Country, Southern Nigeria The people of Aboh use two words for the Ibo Country, Elu-Ugwu and Isu-Ama. In the use of the former we may note that the men of Awka, a town lying 20 miles due east of Onitsha, claim to be "brothers "of the Aboh people, and one has heard it asserted that there the pure Ibo language is spoken. This claim receives some support from the tradition that a certain king of Aboh, being desirous of evading death, visited a famous shrine in Elu-Ugwu to inquire by what means he might live for ever. It is very probable that the idea of such a pilgrimage was put into his mind by a travelling smith from Awka, who also acted as an agent for the Oracle (Abwala) of his town. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ezeagu(m): 10:36pm On May 30, 2011 |
ChinenyeN: The Igbo were sent primarily to the British America Colonies in the 18th century, Sierra Leone received Igbo people in the 19th century as re-captives. Sierra Leone itself was providing slaves for the British as well before the 19th century. ChinenyeN: 'Ungua' in Havana of the 19th century was a point of origin that Cubans noted from some Ngwa re-captives, there are many ways Igbo re-captives described their origin, which ranged from town/village, to clan and then to Eboe/Ibo which was the most popular. Most slaves from all around Igboland are noted as Eboe. 'Carabali' was a Spanish word that described the geographical location of what the British called the Bight of Biafra. Carabali was also used to describe the people that came from here and obviously wasn't a name the slaves gave to themselves, unless they were Kalabari. For example there was a 'Carabli Onecha'. ChinenyeN: Most of the Igbo slaves in the height of the Biafran slave trade would have been southern. The cultural influences in places like Jamaica (Okonko influences from what is now Abia) and Barbados (Obeah-Aro from the same area) point towards the south, very strongly actually. Aro's activity points towards this, and lastly the long slave route throughout the south also points towards this. So 'Eboe' was not only used for northern groups. Note that 'Ibo' place names aren't necessarily found in every colony the Igbo were shipped to in the Americas in large numbers, like Jamaica, St. Lucia, Dominica. . . . ChinenyeN: Captain Hugh Crow kept note of Bonny as 'Bonny', and then talked about the large amount of Igbo descendants there are on the island. And the people populating Bonny definitely weren't mostly northern Igbo because Bonny's dialect is nothing like those up north. ChinenyeN: As a creole, it couldn't have been Crowther's first time hearing the word Ibo or even Igbo, the re-captured Ibo slaves before him were much, I'm sure he himself must have had Igbo relatives. Instead of Ibo town being as a result of a new found Ibo identity, I believe this was just a new found Ibo consciousness. ChinenyeN: 'Eboe country' is as old as the spelling of the word 'Eboe'. Europeans thought 'Eboe Town' (Onicha) was the capital of the Eboe country and the people themselves were Eboe groups, the spelling changed to Ibo when they actually came into Igboland, but they were still seen as Ibo groups. The word Eboe was from the slaves themselves. There are notices of runaway slaves whose masters note their origin and ethnic identification, for example there was one 'from Bonna of the Ibo country', and this is what the slaves told the plantation owners themselves. The spread of Igbo identity can't be due to the northern groups and slavery, because the southern groups were the most enslaved which is why one of the longest slave routes in Nigeria cuts through Uzuakoli to Bonny if I remember well. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysicsMHD(m): 10:41pm On May 30, 2011 |
I have a question for people from Delta state, particularly those who have been to this place. Are the people of OZA NOGOGO considered Ikas (Igbos)? I was trying to find anything that showed that they were Igbo, but I could not find anything. They seem to be Binis. If states are to be made perfectly ethnically/linguistically homogeneous, and new states were made, would they be considered Ika or something else? I think they are actually Bini. "INTRODUCTION It is difficult to talk about OZA-NOGOGO without talking about the greater OZA community, a part and parcel of the Benin Kingdom. The name OZA-NOGOGO is a mere geographical expression of the OZA community on the east bank of River Orhiowmon, whereas the OZA on the west bank is known as OZA-ABIOKUNLA(OZA-NISI). Like the country Israel which is located at the heart of the world, OZA was located at the heart of the defunct Bendel State. The OZA-NOGOGO town is just a part of the greater OZA community that became split between two local governments. Today, a part of OZA(OZA-NOGOGO) is in Ika South Local Government Area of Delta State. The other part(OZA-NISI) is in Orhiowmon Local Government Area of Edo State. Presently, OZA-NOGOGO is a constituent part of the Agbor Kingdom. It is an Edo speaking part of Agbor." http://wazoza.com/history.php http://68articles.com/a-report-on-oza-nogogo-beefore-the-advent-of-the-europeans-17fcacc4.html http://siris-libraries.si.edu/ipac20/ipac.jsp?uri=full=3100001~!500262!0 http://books.google.com/books?id=dY8eAQAAMAAJ&q=OZA-NOGOGO&dq=OZA-NOGOGO&hl=en&ei=TA3kTf6VO5K3tgeN6umQBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA They claim they are being marginalized: http://www.ikaworld.com/index.php?mod=article&cat=news&article=512&page_order=1&act=print http://wazoza.com/react.php ' Are these claims of marginalization reasonable? (I read what was in those links, but what I mean is, for those actually on the ground, and taking all other factors into account, are the marginalization claims about their area exactly as stated?) |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by Abagworo(m): 11:11pm On May 30, 2011 |
PhysicsMHD: You are gradually coming to my level of reasoning and the reason why you cannot cut a perfect ethnic boundary.There are definitely Edos in Delta State and Ijaws in Edo state.Some might even be landlocked by another ethnic group.The major reason why Anioma needs to be created is that other Deltans hate them with passion and sometimes regard them as intruders.I think the major reason is oil because Ukwuani people seem more acceptable by other Deltans.I am expressing my observation and do not necessarily accuse all non-Igbo Deltans. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ChinenyeN(m): 12:10am On May 31, 2011 |
Like I stated earlier, Ezeagu, its the HOW. People get so caught up on the HOW. The HOW is always debatable, and the HOW is not even the point I've been trying to make. Instead, the [i]only [/i]point I've been trying to make is the WHAT, and that WHAT is very simple. 'Igbo' is a northern/western word. It belongs to the northern/western Igbo cultural area, not the south, and Europeans simply took that word and applied it to both the northern/western and southern/eastern groups. Europeans crafted 'Igbo' identity, as we know it. That is the only point I've been making here, and that is something we can all agree on. Details though, are left for the debatable HOW. By the way, Carabali Ungua are noted to have already had a cabildo in Havana by the 18th century. In fact, documents in the 18th century state that they [Carabali Ungua] were getting their previous cabildo reauthorized, indicating that they had arrived at Havana much earlier than 19th century. Also, when the slave trade shifted from Bonny/Kalabari to Arochukwu, the raid for slaves was concentrated more the northern cultural area, not southern. In fact, overall, most Igbo slaves came from northern Igbo cultural area. Lastly, the Igbo spoken in Bonny is a mixture of original Ngwa/Ndoki and later Isu and other northern Igbo slave groups. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by lakal(m): 1:28am On May 31, 2011 |
I'm not really in your debate, but I like historical topics such as the origins of the term "Igbo." Basden, which I cited earlier, seems to support Chinenye's Northern/Western Hypothesis: The origin of the word Ibo is obscure. In the records of the early explorers we do not meet with the name. The country on the left bank of the Lower Niger was spoken of as Elu-Ugwu, which simply indicates "high land "(hill). That on the right bank was called Ado, and this rather refers to Benin. There was a small town between Onitsha and Idah called Igbo, but this could hardly have supplied the name by which the whole country is known. The name was, doubtless, first met with at Onitsha. The people of this town claim to have come from the western side of the Niger, and some of the leading families state that they are of Bini stock. Thes[b]e people designate all the eastern hinterland as Ibo, and the western side of the river as Enu-Ani. [/b] The word is now usually spelt and pronounced Ibo, but to the native it is Igbo, the gb being used as an explosive sound. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ezeagu(m): 2:00am On May 31, 2011 |
ChinenyeN: You're going to have to explain how Europeans crafted Igbo identity with convincing evidence for people to understand where the word Igbo came from and how it spread. The fact that Igbo is a northern word is not significant in the argument for Europeans crafting the Igbo identity, this is what people have a problem with, the idea that Europeans made Igbo people Igbo. Aside from the other reasons for why this fact is not significant, one would be that we already know many things from the northern groups have become rooted into the cultures and identities of the southern and western Igbo cultures which was done before Europeans crossed the Ocean. ChinenyeN: The Northern parts that Arochukwu had deals with raiders was with the Nike lands, apart from that Onicha was the only significant trading post for slaves in the northern areas, and then we come into the south with large slave trading areas like Nkwerre, and other groups like those around Umuahia, Uzuakoli, Ngwa, in short, most of the communities along the long slave route that can be seen stretching through Abia and Rivers today. ChinenyeN: Southern groups were not afraid to involve themselves in slave trading (and raiding), why should the slave traders waste their time travelling up to the north when they can get their slaves from the southern groups. Where were most of Aro's victims from? See here. http://people.wku.edu/johnston.njoku/ Also read here. http://books.google.com/books?id=6eqiRAP3U2kC&pg=PA61 lakal: "The origin of the word Ibo is obscure" Meaning there is no offical origin. There are towns with the word 'Igbo' that are older than Onicha that even Basden noted. And there are also stories among some other groups about a person called 'Igbo' and other related stories. We already know about the 'us and them the Igbo' terms the Igbo groups used. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ChinenyeN(m): 2:25am On May 31, 2011 |
ezeagu:Again with the HOW. Details upon details which will forever be debatable. You know what, overthinking leads to useless debates. Follow the simple line of deduction. 'Igbo' is a northern/western word, not southern. If Europeans came across the word, then it means that they also came across northern/western Igbo slaves. Simple. It can't be that difficult to grasp. ezeagu:. . and Isu. Regardless, Nike is still northern Igbo cultural area. ezeagu:Alright, let's get this straight. Those 'long slave routes' are the result of connecting once unconnected trade markets. To put it simply, before the routes became 'long slave routes', they were trade market routes, largely unconnected. For instance, before the Aro had become particularly involved in the slave trade, Ngwa markets were localized and leaning toward what is now known as Rivers state. Basically, Ngwa had market routes to the coast, and aside form Umuahia people, who more or less acted as middlemen traders for the Ngwa and groups further north, Ngwa was largely disconnected from other Igbo markets. It was like this until finally, Arochukwu, through the Okonko society, connected Ngwa markets along the 'long slave route' that you mentioned. ezeagu:There is something called middlemen traders, and there were plenty of those, during that time. Look, all these details (the HOW, which we can forever argue about) do not invalidate the fact that 'Igbo' as we know largely owes itself to European contact (which is the main thing I'm saying/asserting here). |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by lakal(m): 2:27am On May 31, 2011 |
Ezeagu, what is noted here is how the Onitshas conceived of the Igbo speaking world: the people of the East bank were Igbo, and the People of the West bank (but also including themselves) were Enuani people. The term Enuani is still in existence, as is Igbo. (Is Enuani similar to the term "Olu" that is used in 'Olu na Igbo bu nwanne?') Other sources also mentioned how the Onitshas historically looked down on the people that they termed "Igbo," as did some of the other Enuani people, such as the Ikas. (Similar to how Oyo Yorubas looked down on non-Oyos) |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ChinenyeN(m): 2:34am On May 31, 2011 |
lakal:No. Enuani and Oru (Olu) people are not the same. Enuani are western Igbo cultural area, and Oru are Riverine Igbo cultural area. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ezeagu(m): 2:41am On May 31, 2011 |
ChinenyeN: What I'm saying is that you're going to have to explain yourself when you say the 'Europeans crafted Igbo identity' or the slaves were from the northern Igbolands because they identified as Igbo (even when some southern groups include Igbo in their origin stories) because they are statements that you have to understand before agreeing and moving on to whatever other points there are. ChinenyeN: There are trade routes everywhere, however, this is the biggest slave route in Igboland even if it was once a trade route for other things. ChinenyeN: This is true, but it is different from saying that Europeans crafted the Igbo identity or that southern and northern slaves were split between Igbo (north) and then different clans (south). lakal: I'm saying that it was not only the Onicha that perceived the world like this (we and them the Igbo), you even gave an example of Olu, the river side people. ChinenyeN: I think he's talking about people from what is now spelt 'Orlu' or people near the Niger. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ChinenyeN(m): 3:02am On May 31, 2011 |
ezeagu:Are you talking about 'southern' geographically, or 'southern' culturally? ezeagu:Oh okay. Now I get what you're saying. I thought I was making the same point, but I guess I had an issue with syntax; my wording. In that case then, I can rephrase, but I'm still only saying one thing (the same thing I've been saying from the beginning), we largely have Europeans to thank for our current 'Igbo' identity. ezeagu:You sure? Even so, my answer would still be no. Orlu people and Enuani are not the same. Orlu people are Isu, unless you're talking about Orlu LGA which contains Isu and Oru elements. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by lakal(m): 4:01am On May 31, 2011 |
ChinenyeN: Ok, I see. @Ezeagu I was referring to Olu/Oru, the riverine people. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ezeagu(m): 5:18am On May 31, 2011 |
ChinenyeN: And I agree. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ChinenyeN(m): 5:38am On May 31, 2011 |
Man, I know that syntax is key to understanding, but I never thought it would turn out to be such an issue for such a simple discussion as this. All this roundabout, just for me to end up saying the very same thing I said at the very beginning. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ChinenyeN(m): 1:18pm On May 31, 2011 |
You know, until now, I never quite realized the extend of Isu expansion. In fact, now that I think about it, it seems to me that we may actually have the Isu to thank for the general level of cultural uniformity we see throughout Igboland, and not the Nri, as many seem to think. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by Abagworo(m): 2:48pm On May 31, 2011 |
ChinenyeN: Yes.Many Isus no longer know their true tribal affiliations as a result of the way the british rearranged the Igbo society.An example is someone from Uga(Isu) in Anambra does not know that he is more affiliated with Amauzari mbano(Isu) than Awka because he is from Anambra.There is another group known as Itu which had their own dialect but have been reduced to almost a single community between Ibibio and Igbo.The Isu formerly covered from Ekwulobia down to present day Ikeduru where they meet Oratta.People now call Ikeduru,Mbaitoli and 0ratta Owerri which is just the name of a clan in Oratta. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ChinenyeN(m): 11:37pm On May 31, 2011 |
It really puts a number of things into perspective for me. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by Ogbuefi11: 10:51pm On Jun 01, 2011 |
1)I am beginning to like Physics MHD, He is a brilliant chap, First of all the absence from this post was unplanned.I was engaged with other issues.Good, for reading the UNDP report on the Niger Delta.I find it funny to make quotes from the publication, I made references to in the first instance, I have read it thoroughly, The primary reason for the response that Edo is poor is when you came up with the story of a "paradise" which is insultive to me and the entire Anioma people.I also hoped you saw from the statistics attested by the United Nations that the Human Development Index of Aniomaland is ahead of Beninland despite the fact that Benin has a larger urban population which should have been a justification for a better performance.I need to remind you that Delta was ranked first and Aniomaland lead the state in all parameters considered. 2)On the issue of slavery, You are just trying to be diplomatic abt that fact.Edo was a slave in the palace.There was nothing like servants like we have it today.OK, he was a servant , so what was his roots, to which family in Benin did he belong because every Edo man belongs to a family as reflected in their morning greetings, You belong to one.Which of these did the palace servant EDO hail from ? You have displayed much here and I am expecting an answer.Methinks , he was a slave , though for ethnic pride which is the feature of every Edo native has blinded you from seeing the fact. 3)Like I said earlier , I have roots in Esanland , we share boundaries , farm and inter marry and many Esan settlements were even founded by Anioma settlers.I donot hate Edo people, I cant.It is your insults to someone who is hurt by those sad events that was the reason for my attack.Perhaps we were all being emotional here.What I will not accept is to rewrite history, no matter how sad or bitter it is.Anioma people have forged ahead but cant forget what happened especially the kind of reaction from the Benin, Yes, it was wrong to have invaded the Midwest but it was inevitable , Why ? Because the Midwest region had a subtantial percentage of her citizens identified as Igbos.We were not spared in the North when the killings occured nor in the Military and Ejoor who took over from Osadebay did practically nothing to make us feel we have stake in the Midwest.I have records of his visit to my my home town.Our people complained bitterly that we were killed in the North and unlike the East which was more assertive to question the justification for the killings he was mute and nothing was even made to compensate those who left the North with their lives. Because of the selective purge of the military class based on ethnicity, our soldiers were forced to identify themselves with their folks from the East.It is a question of survival.We have examples all over the world, The Rwanda conflict for instance involved the Congo because DRC had Tutsis and Hutus as well. or the Balkans war involving Croats, Serbs and Muslims, or Hitler annexation of Austria, It is always the case, The Midwest could not have been isolated.What was however remarkable was that in that initial thrust to the Midwest , not even one civilian life was lost and I stand by this position. 1 Like |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by AndreUweh(m): 11:09pm On Jun 01, 2011 |
^^^ I think Col Igboba, a midwestern Igbo would have led that mission. Yet when Igboba questioned the delay of Banjo and his meeting with westerners Banjo imprisoned him and left him at the mercy of of the enemies. They released him and got him beheaded. Am full of praises for Igboba, Onwuatuegwu and other Anioma sons who died fighting along side their kins from the east. 1 Like |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by Ogbuefi11: 11:34pm On Jun 01, 2011 |
1)On the claim that Ohaneze said 8,000 lives were lost in the Midwest, You are definitely not correct abt that figure.What Ohaneze said because I have read the document is that over 800 people were killed in Benin during the period of madness in 1967.The claim that over 40,000 Anioma lives were lost is genuine because as a member of the Izu Anioma, I am privy to accounts from all the towns that make up the Anioma area including the killings of that period.There are like I said before , about 100 Anioma towns.From our records and from the figures computed from the four periods of killings Asaba clan leads with between 2,500 to 3000 casualties followed by Ishiagu with 1500-2000 casualities.My town Igbodo had about 200 casualties yet you have some like Owa clan that had less than 100.Aboh and Ndoni each had over 500 casualties.This was based on fact and not speculation.Ishiagu was almost wiped out and the town still bears the scar of the genocide.I personally lost my aunt there.These figures like I noted earlier are based on the initial killings in the North of 1966 including the purge in the military, the killings in the non -Anioma area of the Midwest 1967, the killings in the Anioma area of the Midwest 1967 and the deaths of Anioma citizens stuck in Biafra and those who went voluntary to fight there.I therefore advise you not to insult the sensitivity of the Anioma people on this matter especially if you dont have any evidence to back it. 2)There is no way you can compare "ADO" used by the Yoruba to "IDUU" used by the Anioma which reflects in such names like Idumwonyi and Idubor.I have never heard the "Ado" version of these names.In addition I can attest based on our own history that Agbor and Ubulu kingdoms were powerful enough to compel the Benins to fortify the moats on its eastern axis.Ubulu Uku and Agbor as we know were powerful kingdoms and desendants of captured soldiers of Benin origin can still be found in those towns.These towns were also founded before the 11th century which falls within the 7th-14th century time frame of the moats.I do however disagree that the construction of the moats ended in the 14th century because records reveals that Oba Ewuare extend the moats within his period of reign c1440-1473 which falls within the 15th century. 3) I have read the case between the Ijaws of Gelegele and Benins of Ughoton on what is called Gelegele land in the courts.Where are the Benin occupiers of Gelegele ? Because it is clearly an Ijaw settlemnt and the issue in court was the ownership of the land on which the settlement was founded and not on those who reside there ? In the lower courts the Ijaws won until they got to the court of Appeal and Supreme Court when decision went in favour of the Benin.The Ijaws said that the decisions were manipulated because one of the judges (a native of Benin convinced his colleagues to make decision to favour his people).Yet dispite this victory, is Gelegele the only Ijaw town in Edo state ? Have the Benin gone to court to prove if those villages are actually theirs ? In a display of the expansionist nature of Benin traditional leadership, they got the area named OBAYANTOR and appointed Prince Edun Akenzua , the "Enogie of Obayantor" .The said Obayantor distinct from the one we know along Sapele road was extended to include all Ijaw villages besides Gelegele.These include Ofunama, Ikoro, Safarogbo, Ajakurama. Nikorogha, Jamagie, Okomu and several others covering 3 wards in Ova SW and Oduna ward In Ovia NE.Yet until recently , there were not even treated as natives of Edo State until recently. 4)Now, on the OZA NOGOGO issue, The people of Oza Nogogo are later settlers to Agbor clan and they were granted lands by the Obi of Agbor .According to our history, they were remnants of those who had followed Ezechime from Benin c.1530.Though they have managed to have integrated as part of Agbor, they still manage to speak a corrupt version of Edo with has a lot of Igbo loan words.The ruler of Oza Nogogo is the Ogisi and he is installed by the Obi of Agbor and a member of the Agbor traditional council.With time dispute arosed amongst Oza people and some of them crossed the Orhionmwon river(the boundary between Anioma and Edo lands in that axis) and founded such settlements like Ozanisi and Oza Aibiokunla.Anioma people donot claim those settlements because their territory donot extend to the area.The title of Ogisi is derived from Agbor and not Benin.Where else do you hear this title other than the Agbor kingdom ? Because I know that the ruler of Agbor Nta bears the title of Ogisi as well.This claim of Benin was just invented because they have longed for so long for clan status .In addition this irresponsible claim of a few native of the sub clan have been dismissed in the courts. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by agbotaen: 7:21pm On Jun 09, 2011 |
if you are not from agbor , please dont claim agbor , the closest neighbour are agbor , owa and abavo . igbodo is about 30 miles from these places . igbodo is the last ika town and they are near aniocha area and most of their people migrated from igboland, we do not consider them core ikas as they are at the extreme and their ideology is usually different from ours.and even their ika is also different. ika people have just lunched the new testament in ika language last month and they are working on producing the whole bible in ika language. 2. ika people have their socio- cultural group called onu /ogua ika . 3.we are ika people we are not igbo and neither are we benin. 4. i am from owa kingdom -the vast majority of core ikas such as agbor, owa, abavo,idumuesah, ute-okpu, otolokpo always consider themselves ika , but those communities near aniocha some times see themselves as igbo , so we usually consider them non core ika , and their culture too is usuall aniocha culture. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by AndreUweh(m): 8:59pm On Jun 09, 2011 |
^^^ The Izzi people in Ebonyi have long translated the bible into Izzi dialect, yet they do not disclaim Igbo. Guy, give up as your defence is always leaky and weak. At first you claimed Ika where not Igbo, now a part of Ika is Igbo. This crap is all you could come up with your long vacation. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by udezue(m): 12:21am On Jun 10, 2011 |
Lol Agbotaen, nwoke u are retardedd. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ezeagu(m): 1:17am On Jun 10, 2011 |
agbotaen: The same Agbor that look at all others around them as bush people? ![]() 1 Like |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysicsHD: 10:59pm On Jun 10, 2011 |
1)I am beginning to like Physics MHD, He is a brilliant chap, First of all the absence from this post was unplanned.I was engaged with other issues.Good, for reading the UNDP report on the Niger Delta.I find it funny to make quotes from the publication, I made references to in the first instance, I have read it thoroughly, The primary reason for the response that Edo is poor is when you came up with the story of a "paradise" which is insultive to me and the entire Anioma people.I also hoped you saw from the statistics attested by the United Nations that the Human Development Index of Aniomaland is ahead of Beninland despite the fact that Benin has a larger urban population which should have been a justification for a better performance.I need to remind you that Delta was ranked first and Aniomaland lead the state in all parameters considered. a) the HDI of Aniomaland alone is not necessarily represented in the report because the HDI of nearly 70% of a different population in Delta state is also being used, although rather indirectly. Whether it would be higher or lower without the HDI of the other, non-Anioma areas is another issue, but it's clear that the Delta statistics can't be used to draw conclusions about Aniomaland alone. In fact, although they did rate several Anioma LGAs as being among the LGAs with the highest HDI scores in the Niger Delta, this is what they also wrote (I don't know if you missed it): "Across Nigeria, no local data on GDP per capita exist because local contributions to GDP have never been measured, although this issue is currently being addressed. GDP per capita has instead been calculated as the internally generated revenue of local governments per capita. This serves as a proxy for measuring local economic activities. Some reservations crop up in using this calculation to measure GDP, however, because it often does not reflect the real lives of local people or local economic potentials, given the high levels of both misappropriated funds and tax evasion. To calculate the human development indices for this report, the missing data were interpolated using standard spatial interpolation techniques. In some cases, state scores were used as benchmarks and local scores were derived by weighting the state score with the overall local scores on the indicators with available data." - p. 61 "The HDI for Local Government Areas Local HDIs are comparatively lower than state rankings. This is partly a result of using internally generated revenue as a surrogate for GDP in the calculation of the HDI. But the HDI values are still useful in showing the variations in human development across each state." - p. 61 So the data for HDI for LGAs ignores local GDP and only uses IGR per capita, plus some additional estimates based on the state's scores, to create other data. And if you look carefully through the "GDP index" for LGAs for each state in Table A2.1 of Appendix 1, you will notice that - Ughelli North is claimed to have a GDP index of 0. Ughelli South is claimed to have a GDP index of 0.674 - Etsako Central LGA in Edo state, is claimed to have a GDP index of 0. Etsako West has a GDP index of 0.279. - Four of the LGAs in Ondo are claimed to have a GDP index of 0. - Three LGAs in Akwa Ibom are claimed to have a GDP index of 0. - Almost every single LGA in Delta state is claimed to have a higher GDP index than almost every single LGA in every other Niger Delta state. That is to say, you could pick out almost any LGA in Delta state completely at random and the UN Niger Delta report would claim that it has a higher "GDP index" than: Oredo LGA in Edo state and any other LGAs in Edo state Aba North LGA in Abia state (which is where Aba is centered at, I presume) and any other LGAs the city of Aba covers Uyo LGA in Akwa Ibom and any of the other LGAs of the city of Uyo. Akure south LGA in Ondo state the LGA in Cross River that the city of Calabar is centered around the LGAs in Imo state that the city of Owerri covers and so on. . . Do you have an explanation for the zeros for "GDP index" for some LGAs? Obviously they rounded them down to zero because the number was negligibly small, but why are certain LGAs immediately around them slightly higher or much higher? Look through all the LGAs with a GDP index of zero and explain to me what the problem is in those LGAs that their immediate neighbor LGAs are not facing. Do you have an explanation for how almost every LGA in Delta state is claimed to have a much higher "GDP index" than almost every LGA in every other state in the Niger Delta, including those LGAs of capital cities? b) The report claimed (on p. 54) that Edo state had the 2nd highest HDI in the Niger Delta, and that Delta was ahead of it by 0.018. So this HDI statistic actually does not support any assertion about there being some overwhelming difference in development - whether due to "wickedness" of Binis or other factors. There also seems to be a contradiction between Edo state trailing Delta state by so little in HDI, but the HDIs of the LGAs of Edo state trailing the HDIs of the LGAs of Delta state by so much. And it is also the case that the HDI values for the LGAs of Edo state vs. the HDI values for the LGAs of states which rank lower in HDI than Edo state don't match up well with the claim that Edo state has a higher HDI than these states. Perhaps you could explain this. It seems that there are multiple contradictions in the data. c) Given that Delta state's allocation is much greater than that of Edo state (see chart 2.5, p. 62), but it does not have even twice the population of Edo state, it's surprising that there wasn't a much greater difference in the HDI claimed for the two states or that Edo (the state with the lowest allocation out of those considered Niger Delta states in this report) was claimed to be second behind Delta in HDI. d) The report also claims with regard to HPI: "The best performing states in the Niger Delta are Delta at 22.4 per cent and Edo at 23.4 per cent." (p. 57) So even this 2005 statistic says that Delta is only a slightly ahead of Edo state with regard to "human poverty index" e) However, on p. 45 on table 2.4 it claims Edo state has a slightly lower percent poverty level than Delta f) And on p. 35, table 2.1 explicitly says with regard to "poverty incidence": 2004: Delta: 45.35 Edo: 33.09 So "human poverty index", "poverty level" and "poverty incidence" don't seem to agree with each other, but it has Edo faring better than Delta for two of these statistics., while faring slightly worse for a third. And what I really noticed about the HDI calculated was: 1. "The well-known limitations of the HDI in the region have to be borne in mind. For instance, the data on income used to compute the per capita GDP component include oil revenue, much of which is not retained within the Niger Delta region. The HDI also does not adequately capture severe environmental degradation and poor infrastructural provision because of the nature of its measurement parameters. The Niger Delta states do rank relatively high on the HDI indicators of life expectancy, knowledge and GDP per capita values. Unfortunately, these do not include the items the states badly need, such as roads, water, electricity, appropriate waste management and so on. There is a sharp contrast between the quantitative indicators and the real quality of life of the people in the region. It is necessary to look beyond the HDI for an effective assessment of the problems of the Niger Delta." - p. 56 2. "Most indicators used to compute the HDI do not include the items that the Niger Delta states badly need, such as roads, water, electricity and appropriate waste management, among others." - p. 49 3. "The report discovers that most of the best performing local government areas on the HDI are the urban ones, while the majority of the poorly performing ones are those based in rural areas. The local government areas without oil facilities appear to fare better on the poverty index than those with oil facilities; an indication of unequal distribution of oil revenues. The poor outcomes of development interventions of oil companies are, to some extent, due to lack of a systematic link to government development plans. The delta.s appalling human development situation cannot be completely captured by the HDI, as some essential issues in the region are not reflected in the computation of the index, such as the dire state of infrastructure. The lack of data also distorts the calculation of the index to some extent. Nevertheless, available data point to the fact that the region is not faring well. The poor marks suggest the delta may struggle to achieve the MDGs. It is only close in one area.school enrollment and is not likely to meet the other goals by the target date of 2015 or anytime soon after." - p. 2 4. "In interpreting the results, it is important to note that the human development situation in Nigeria as a whole is deplorable. The use of relative terms better, higher, worse and lower should not be misconstrued. The mere fact that a region, state or local government has a higher score on an index than another does not necessarily mean that the human development situation in that region, state or locality is good. As will be clear in subsequent sections of this report, the HDI for the Niger Delta region as a whole is unacceptable considering that it has produced the wealth fuelling development in other parts of the country." - p. 50 As for the lack of development in many parts of the Bini areas of Edo state, that seems to have to do with most governors of the state (including the current one, who is not Bini) concentrating much of the development for Edo south in Benin city and the drain that the city has on other areas. The Niger Delta report even agrees with that idea, so the fact that a group has one larger urban area does not mean that other areas would necessarily be faring well without additional money. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by PhysicsHD: 11:21pm On Jun 10, 2011 |
2)On the issue of slavery, You are just trying to be diplomatic abt that fact.Edo was a slave in the palace.There was nothing like servants like we have it today.OK, he was a servant , so what was his roots, to which family in Benin did he belong because every Edo man belongs to a family as reflected in their morning greetings, You belong to one.Which of these did the palace servant EDO hail from ? You have displayed much here and I am expecting an answer.Methinks , he was a slave , though for ethnic pride which is the feature of every Edo native has blinded you from seeing the fact. I don't think Egharevba, or anybody else for that matter, would have known what specific family he hailed from in the 15th century, unless he was the founder of that family, considering that his role, although heroic, was brief and limited. He was just a guy named Edo and since he didn't found an historically important family, there is little reason for Egharevba to know what family he came from. It seems the truth is that only certain men could be called one of the slaves of the king (ovien oba). You claim that there were no servants there but those who have taken the time to find out from Binis in earlier times made observations that strongly disagree with everything that you're saying: "These criteria of extreme patrimonialism were fully realized in the Benin ideology of kingship, but each was countered by an opposite principle. 'The Oba owns the land' (Oba nya oto) was no shibboleth; he appointed an official to regulate its distribution and also a band of 'surveyors' to show people their boundaries. Yet the land belonged to ward and village communities and was administered by their elders (Bradbury 1957: 76). As Dapper rightly reported in 1668, 'all the Benin people, high and low, are bound to acknowledge themselves to be the slaves of the king' (cited in Ling Roth 1903: 91); but Nyendael was no less accurate when, in 1701, he wrote: 'All male slaves here are foreigners; for the natives cannot be sold for slaves, but all are free, and alone bear the name of the king's slaves' (Bosman 1967: 402). In fact only freeborn Edo had the right to be branded with the facial and body markings which distinguished 'the Oba's slaves' (evien-Oba) from 'real slaves', that is the slaves of (ordinary) 'people' (evien-onbhan) and the private slaves of the reigning incumbent (evien-Omo)." - R.E. Bradbury, "Patrimonialism and Gerontocracy in Benin" http://books.google.com/books?id=QPsNAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA21 "The Oba's palace retainers were divided into three major segments among which were distributed the menial, craft, administrative, and ceremonial functions necessary to maintain his household and his royal dignity. Briefly, the Iwebo had charge of royal regalia, the Iweguae supplied the Oba's servants and attendants, and the Ibiwe-Eruerie were responsible for the discipline and welfare of his wives and children. These retainer associations were also the main instrument for the recruitment and training of governmental personnel for the execution of the Oba's civil and ritual authority throughout his domains." - R.E. Bradbury, "Patrimonialism and Gerontocracy in Benin" "Recruitment into retainer service was open to all male free-born commoners. Indeed, in principle, every ovien-Oba was by paternal filiation a member of one of the retainer divisions. However, unless he was formally initiated into his association ('entered the palace') his membership of it remained purely nominal, affording him no access to its apartments in the palace or to its revenue or deliberations. Since Benin villages were made up of a number of patrilineal groupings of disparate origins, each village contained members of all the palace associations." - R.E. Bradbury, "Patrimonialism and Gerontocracy in Benin" http://books.google.com/books?id=QPsNAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA22 There were even "slaves" of the Uzama that were also of free-born origin: 'Literally, "slaves of Ezomo". The free-born Bini describes himself as ovien-oba (the oba's slave) as a way of expressing his loyalty. The point Bradbury makes here is that in the Uzama territories, the free borns refer to themselves not as evien-oba but as evien of the respective uzama chiefs.' - Foundations of Nigerian Federalism: Pre-colonial antecedents, p. 256 http://books.google.com/books?id=3JIHAQAAMAAJ&q=ovien+oba&dq=ovien+oba&hl=en&ei=rXztTbj3C-XM0AHF4YTDAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBg And it turns out that the privilege of being one of the ovien-Oba, as noted by Nyendael in 1701, and as told to Bradbury in the 50s, is known up to this day: "Her rights and status then are contingent upon the holistic categorization of her person as a unit of being who procure life and therefore the instrument for human propagation, she should ,therefore, be placed in a protective sector where her beings would be valued, appreciated and adequately nourished. That is why some times WOMAN in Benin would say that “Okhuo ere ovionba”. Meaning, women are not slave of the Oba but citizens, while the men are the Ovien-Oba who can be summoned to undertake tasks as the Oba may desire from time to time. For purposes of correction, the term OVIEN OBA” does not mean Slave as the word connotes. It means Subject. Every person under the Kingdom is a citizen. Subject to the Overlord of the Oba." - Chief Nosakhare Isekhure (the Isekhure of Benin), "The Law And Gender Sensitivity" (part 1) http://www.edoworld.net/The_Law_And_Gender_Sensitivity.html This shows a consistency on this matter of "slaves" of the Oba that has existed for centuries. From what Bradbury found out regarding the distinction between "slaves" of royalty and nobility and ordinary slaves, I would strongly disagree with the idea that this "slave" named Edo, if he did indeed exist, would have been what you were trying to portray him as. This "slave" named Edo, if he actually existed, would have held a high position in society. You are welcome to your own conclusions. But I would say that those sites and sources that have described him as a servant were more accurate and are not merely being diplomatic. |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by vicenzo(m): 2:40pm On Jun 12, 2011 |
agbotaen:Hmm,the return of agbontae,how refreshing,i thought the dude was nailed by ezeagu,when he showed that document from uniben where the obi or is it dein of agbor admitted his nri ancestry,ezeagu pls can you post the book again? |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by ezeagu(m): 3:14pm On Jun 12, 2011 |
Gladly. ![]() [center][img]http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WXouAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA48&img=1&pgis=1&dq=%22Though+we+know+our+root+is+firmly+Nri%22&sig=ACfU3U1JwkgHfqsFGZrq-NHezV3OZeNAqQ&edge=0[/img][/center] http://books.google.co.uk/books?ei=asn0TfnfJY2q8AOL_IiwBw&ct=result&id=WXouAQAAIAAJ Community development in Owa Kingdom: the Nigerian factor, Efeizomor II (Obi of Owa) NWA NSHI. ![]() 1 Like |
Re: Delta Igbo, Bendel Igbo: What Does That Even Mean. by exotik: 4:02am On Jun 13, 2011 |
@ezeagu outta curiosity what does efeizomor mean in igbo? coz that name sounds edo to me and has a meaning. in edo efeizomor would mean riches/wealth does not bring a child or riches/wealth does not raise a child. so what's the igbo meaning? |
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