Abagworo:

@obiagu.Igbo was widely used to address the earlier settlements met by most groups in Southern Nigeria including us.It features well in Yoruba as well."Ijebu-Igbo" is quite well known.As for Igbo,the word was used by Aros(from my personal research) than other Igbos.Isuama means land of Isu and I have read where Ijaws claimed they are derived from Ijaw.It was forbidden to call people Igbo in the ancient time.It was more or less a term used to identify your next door neighbour that speaks same language and considered inferior.I will dig my archives in the evening for references and links.

You should have dug your archive before you talked.

If the Aro spread it, so they brought it to Igbo-ukwu and to Igbo-uzo Why is no Aro town called Igbo or Aro clan itself called Igbo? You're just creating pictures in your head. The Aro might have moved around Igboland and answered Igbo because they knew they were Igbo. They didn't give Igbo-Ukwu or Igbo-Uzo the name Igbo.

Igbo in yoruba means forest. It's like Igbo town with the name Agu-ukwu (Agu is forest)

The way we identify ourselves in Igboland is:
(1) Personal name
(2) Family name
(3) Village (when within the town and has to do with another person from that same town)
(4) Town (when it has to do with people outside your town)
(5) Clan (when it has to do with people outside your clan)
(6) Ethnic group (when it has to do with people outside your ethnic group)

Then, if the #6 did not exist, the Europeans could have called the people by various clan names, instead they called them by the #6. Someone must have told them about the #6.
Looking at it properly, not a single one of those in #5 bears the name of #6. It means the name floats all around the various clans, no one owns it, it was used to address the whole people by whoever feels like it.

exotik:

chyz, binis claim igbo? binis do not even claim esan who are our half-brothers/or closest cousins not to talk of the european created “igbo” identity.

the binis do not claim anything else apart from bini, and allows other edo groups to maintain and enjoy their own identity/uniqueness no matter how closely related.

so an individual, it is either you know you are an ovbi-edo kpataki or you are not cos there is nothing like ovbi-bini. it is actually that simple.

Bini claiming Igbo? I don't recall ever saying that. As for the claim of europeans creating the "Igbo" identity, that was not apart of are argument/discussion so take that up with someone else.

@ chyz*, ok.

but this was what you said: "Igbos coming from Bini? Haha, more like the other way around, if anything"

and that was why i responded like that.

exotik:

@ chyz*, ok.

but this was what you said: "Igbos coming from Bini? Haha, more like the other way around, if anything"

and that was why i responded like.

No wahala, the "if anything" holds a lot of weight though.

Chyz*:

No wahala, the "if anything" holds a lot of weight though.

lol, for ur mind.

exotik:

lol, for your mind.

whateva niggi,lol, Quick question though, is Urhobo a dialect/language understood by Bini and Esan?

Abagworo:

@obiagu.Igbo was widely used to address the earlier settlements met by most groups in Southern Nigeria including us.It features well in Yoruba as well."Ijebu-Igbo" is quite well known.As for Igbo,the word was used by Aros(from my personal research) than other Igbos.Isuama means land of Isu and I have read where Ijaws claimed they are derived from Ijaw.It was forbidden to call people Igbo in the ancient time.It was more or less a term used to identify your next door neighbour that speaks same language and considered inferior.I will dig my archives in the evening for references and links.

Looking at your post again, if Isuama means land of the Isu, then Isu is not a name of a clan else their Igbo is spoken backward. Isu means something else. You can't say, in Igbo language, Ngwa ala, Ngwa ama, Aro ala, Ika ala, Ikwere ala. You can say something like Ezi ala or Ezi ama. Now the land is being qualified by something else.
So Isu seems like an adjective not a noun hence not a name of a clan or ama means something hence not land or Isuama is just a single word.

Back to Igbo, if the Aro were called Igbo, then it helps reinforce the argument that we were known as Igbo before the Europeans came.
For instance, If you meet an Igbo man in the North and he spoke Igbo, what will come to your mind is "Oh, he is Igbo" and if you want to refer to him you say something like, "that Igbo man or onye Igbo" because you neither know his town nor his clan.

Then if, for instance, an Nri man called an Aro trader in 1456 an Igbo, then it means he called him Igbo because he spoke the same language like him but with a difference. He saw him not different from him. That same Nri man will not call a Bini man he came across "onye Igbo" because the Bini man did not speak Igbo. It's on record Igbos called Bini people Idu.

In Olaudah Equiano's book, he identified himself as Igbo, yet he said that those that came from the east were called Oye Eboe or something like that and the description he gave was that of the Igbo.

Chyz*:

whateva niggi,lol,  Quick question though, is Urhobo a dialect/language understood by Bini and Esan?

i dunno if esan can. but for bini, not really. i can only pick some words and names. and i can understand bini properly, just cannot read and write it properly.

and chyz, from my observation, the "binis" of today are already too mixed to be pure "binis". me myself and i, i am usen on my fathers side, and idah/oredo on my mothers side.  so im actually usen and usen people cannot be really called binis coz they are mixed with is considered "yoruba", and have their distinct dialect also, which i cannot even speak or understand since i grew up in benin city and around delta-igbos. and altho i have a bini name and surname, i have cousins who have "yoruba" first names but we all consider ourselves evie-edo kpatakis. i think "bini" is now more or less of an identity u choose to identify with especially when u are from edo state, cos most binis are already to mixed to be pure "bini" but we are all edos, no doubt.

exotik:

and chyz, from my observation, the "binis" of today are already too mixed to be pure "binis". me myself and i, i am usen on my fathers side, and idah/oredo on my mothers side.  so im actually usen and usen people cannot be really called binis coz they are mixed with is considered "yoruba", and have their distinct dialect also, which i cannot even speak or understand since i grew up in benin city and around delta-igbos. and altho i have a bini name and surname, i have cousins who have "yoruba" first names but we all consider ourselves evie-edo kpatakis. i think "bini" is now an identity u choose to identify with especially when u are from edo state, cos most binis are already to mixed to be pure "bini" but we are all edos, no doubt.

Interesting. So before Edo state was created, what ethnic groups/groups were considered or called Edo? Also, with all of the mixture and the dying of dialectical languages, do you think that it maybe more beneficial to come under One name, as far as the ethnic groups/groups that are mutually intelligible are concerned? Or, do you think it will naturally happen on its own?

lol, that na exam question o, and i cant go googling at all, haha but we all come under - edo. that is the name all the "edo" speaking groups identify with/or should identify with.

but some people have their own political agenda and may choose to identify with another group. its all politics anyway.

exotik:

lol, that na exam question o, and i cant go googling at all, haha but we all come under - edo. that is the name all the "edo" speaking groups identify with/or should identify with.

but some people have their own political agenda and may choose to identify with another group. its all politics anyway.

Yea politics is something else. But the whole edo is quite a serious case,at least to me. One thing is for sure, the name of a state does not necessarily identify those within that state. For instance, in Edo State, you have the Igbanke and Ekpon, they are not recognized as Edo people although they are in Edo State. They themselves, as of now, say they are not Edo. Even though they so vehemently want to claim Bini, but were rejected not only by the people but the Oba. They are simply Igbo but want to deny it but wanted to claim Edo but were denied. They now are trying to claim another identity, "Ika", which is funny because then where did the whole Igbanke thing come from, seems more like running from identity to identity when suitable. Point is that distinction of who/what is Edo needs to be more defined. I would give another ethnic group who claim to have land in Edo state, the Ijaw, but like I said, it is a "claim". If this claim is true then I use that as an example too.

We know that when you ask a person from Edo state what are they they say Edo, but is this because they are under that state or because they/their group has been recorded as being "Edo"? For instance, during the division of Bendel State into Delta and Edo states, if the Urhobo/Isoko people were sectioned of into Edo State, would they be considered Edo? If so, for what reasons, apart from it being in that state? And, to add, if they are Edo, although they are in Delta state, do they say they are Edo people?

Who exactly coined the term "Ovi-edo" for whichever group they are referring to as such and who are they? Did those groups agree to it? This can be likened to the naming of "Igbo" to particular clans and groups that you say were not that(Igbo) before. In Igbo we have "Kwenu" and expression of agreement. All clans used it at some point and still do. This is something adopted ages ago when we all were as One. Fracturing down to clans is something that obviously happened down the line;however, we still kept the "Kwenu" whenever gathering in our clans or meetings. There was a center and a single name for the Igboid people, now, whether the name was "Igbo", i don't know,but, I wouldn't rule it out. Point is there is even ambiguity in the name "Edo" as there is with "Igbo", at least for those who don't know, don't show, or give a damn about what's going on in the hood.

lol, first off, there is no ambiguity in the name “edo”,  and how it came about has already been discussed thoroughly on this thread. the only argument is whether "edo" was a servant or slave.

ovbi-edo is the bini way of saying edo-indigene. and those who were directly under edo were those tribes who were under the benin empire. and as the empire fell under british control, it will only be normal for tribes to forge new identities for themselves since they are no longer under the control of the old one. i think that is what is happening ryt now. people are leaving old groups to forge alliances with new ones or the ones they feel will be beneficial to them.

in the future, i think “edo” will eventually be reserved for the binis alone, cos lets say all these proposed states are to come for fruition,  in afemaiesan state, esans even though they are edos will not see the need to identify with that name anymore. they will just say we are esans. in anioma, igbanke even though they are heavily edos will say they are igbos. so with the creation of new states and as the states gets smaller and smaller, i see the edo identity being associated with the binis alone in the future, even though it hasnt always been so.

btw, have u ever met an igbanke man? they mostly answer edo names. and if u understand bini properly, u can understand igbanke.
just take me now for example, i am usen. a tribe mixed with bini/or edo and what would be considered "yoruba" but i have bini name and surname. so what am i? am i not edo? will i now say that because im usen, then i am "yoruba?" even when usen people never even called themselves yoruba? i will only look like a fool if i am to think i am anything other than edo.

Obiagu1:

Looking at your post again, if Isuama means land of the Isu, then Isu is not a name of a clan else their Igbo is spoken backward. Isu means something else. You can't say, in Igbo language, Ngwa ala, Ngwa ama, Aro ala, Ika ala, Ikwere ala. You can say something like Ezi ala or Ezi ama. Now the land is being qualified by something else.
So Isu seems like an adjective not a noun hence not a name of a clan or ama means something hence not land or Isuama is just a single word.

Isu is the name of a clan.I will like to know where you are from because you might be Isu and not be aware.The place identified as Igbo proper consists of Isu and Nri/Awka.Orlu,Ekwulobia,Uga,Akokwa,Okwelle,Okohia,Nkwerre and other towns around them are Isu and that area is known as Isuama.

exotik:

btw, have u ever met an igbanke man? they mostly answer edo names. and if u understand bini properly, u can understand igbanke.
just take me now for example, i am usen. a tribe mixed with bini/or edo and what would be considered "yoruba" but i have bini name and surname. so what am i? am i not edo? will i now say that because im usen, then i am "yoruba?" even when usen people never even called themselves yoruba? i will only look like a fool if i am to think i am anything other than edo.

Your posts are boring and irrelevant.

exotik:

lol, first off, there is no ambiguity in the name “edo”,  and how it came about has already been discussed thoroughly on this thread. the only argument is wether "edo" was a servant or slave.

ovbi-edo is the bini way of saying edo-indigene. and those who were directly under edo were those tribes who were under the benin empire. and as the empire fell under british control, it will only be normal for tribes to forge new identities for themselves since they are no longer under the control of the old one. i think that is what is happening ryt now. people are leaving old groups to forge alliances with new ones or the ones they feel will be beneficial to them.

in the future, i think “edo” will eventually be reserved for the binis alone, cos lets say all these proposed states are to come for fruition,  in afemaiesan state, esans even though they are edos will not see the need to identify with that name anymore. they will just say we are esans. in anioma, igbanke even though they are heavily edos will say they are igbos. so with the creations of new states and as the states gets smaller and smaller, i see the edo identity being associated with the binis alone in future.

I want to hgihlight the part where u said "esans even though they are edos will not see the need to identify with that name anymore". Which were the esans first, "esan" or "edo". In other words, which one did they call themselves first? The name "edo" might just be a name of conguest, calling claim of a property(people) which they saw ass war-booty.

Igbankes don't say they are Igbos, which is what will keep them in Edo state while Anioma is created. Too bad for them. That's the result of claiming those that don't want you. I know the Biafra War brought harshness against us Igbos but the way they chose to handle things with denial is only biting them in their rear-end.  Now you say that Igbankes are heavily edo, what does that mean?

exotik:

btw, have u ever met an igbanke man? they mostly answer edo names. and if u understand bini properly, u can understand igbanke.
just take me now for example, i am usen. a tribe mixed with bini/or edo and what would be considered "yoruba" but i have bini name and surname. so what am i? am i not edo? will i now say that because im usen, then i am "yoruba?" even when usen people never even called themselves yoruba? i will only look like a fool if i am to think i am anything other than edo.

Yes, I have noticed that a lot of igbanke people of Edo names. A lot is through marriage though and them change their names to better fit in and somehow get equality. Some of them are true edo people whose families have traveled and settle in that area long ago. They are Igbos.

I never hear of usen. Good to know there a others around instead on the usuals. Why would your people be considered yoruba?

lol, chyz* i dont even know how to respond to all u wrote. but benin was an empire, and thats how u build empires, go ask the english. duh!

Ngodigha:

Your posts are boring and irrelevant.

and btw, are we going to say now that our unique and distinct dialect of english popularly called pidgin is no longer "english"? even though is heavily laced with english? u guys are funny, man. i don go sleep o. i missed iguefi today anyway, i guess he has repented. gudnyt.

Igbankes don't say they are Igbos, which is what will keep them in Edo state while Anioma is created. Too bad for them.

oh, really? actually, thats good for them coz they are not igbos. they are igbankes/ edo speaking people.

exotik:

oh, really? actually, thats good for them coz they are not igbos. they are igbankes/ edo speaking people.

Corection: Igbankes don't say that they are Igbo any more, at least most don't.Now, them knowing and accepting they are Igbo on the low is another thing. Now, to correct you , Igbanke are not "edo-speaking people",whatever that is, they are "Ika-speaking people", at least thats what they agree.

Also, to go by your own logic, esan are not "edo" they are esan, edo-speaking.

^
and ika-speaking people are not igbo-speaking people, lol xD!

Abagworo:


Isu is the name of a clan.I will like to know where you are from because you might be Isu and not be aware.The place identified as Igbo proper consists of Isu and Nri/Awka.Orlu,Ekwulobia,Uga,Akokwa,Okwelle,Okohia,Nkwerre and other towns around them are Isu and that area is known as Isuama.

I do know that Isu is a clan, or I was told. The problem now is the meaning of "ama" affixed to it. I don't understand how Igbo should be spoken backward because it makes no sense and possibly could change it's meaning.

Remember I said: So Isu seems like an adjective not a noun hence not a name of a clan or ama means something hence not land or Isuama is just a single word.

Obiagu1:

I do know that Isu is a clan, or I was told. The problem now is the meaning of "ama" affixed to it. I don't understand how Igbo should be spoken backward because it makes no sense and possibly could change it's meaning.

Remember I said: So Isu seems like an adjective not a noun hence not a name of a clan or ama means something hence not land or Isuama is just a single word.

Uvuru is also likely that part of the massive movement eastward from Isu-ama halted at Orie-Ukwu Obo-ama na Umuna-ama.

http://www.freewebs.com/abohmbaiseimage/abohmbaiseimage.htm


Had to dig this from Mbaise history.I suspect that you might be from Anambra area and hence have little knowledge of southern Igbo dialects.''Ama'' can be used as either prefix or suffix.

Alright, because it'll be just too much work to try and reply post-by-post, I'll just format a point-by-point response.

'Isuama', from what I've read and what I've been told refers to diasporic/offshoot Isu groups. It means "the Isu who have taken to the streets" (migratory/diasporic/expansionist Isu elements). "Ama" means both 'street' and 'meeting/community/cultural center'. Isuama are Isu people, and though Isuama are found geographically in the south, they form part of the northern Igbo cultural area. There is a town by name Amaigbo in the Isu part of Imo state.

Amaigbo in Umuahia (Abia) area is part of the Isuikwuato group, who belong to the Isu clan. 

Obiagu was asking how Europeans could have a name (Eboe/Igbo) for a people who (according to him) just used it as a 'loose' word. Well, let's see. People in Ngwa/Ndoki/Asa area refer to ALL of Cross River and Old Bende as 'Nmogho', though none in that area bear the name 'Nmogho'. Also, neither is there a clan by name of 'Nmogho'. Now let's take a look at Obiagu's question.

"how could it [Eboe/Igbo] become associated with the whole people by the Europeans when not a single clan, even within Anambra, is called Igbo?"

and let's structure it for the case of Ngwa/Ndoki

"how could it [Nmogho] become associated with a whole people by Ngwa/Ndoki when not a single clan, even within Cross Rivers and Old Bende, is called Nmogho?"

Don't you see how weak that sounds? Just because a people do not go by a name does not mean that another people cannot call them that. It is what it is, plain and simple.

Furthermore, as I stated earlier that 'Igbo' featured in northern and western cultural areas as both a proper name, as well as the name of a variety of northern/western settlements. So it is not difficult to imagine how Europeans could have used and associated the word with a whole people. The reasoning is rather simple here.

Aro adoption of 'Igbo' is as recent as the 1950s. Before they became "Aro Oke Igbo", they were "Aro Umu Chukwu".

From the much I know about Rumuigbo. These people are said to be the descendant of one man who is said to have been Ekinigbo. Ekinigbo is said by Ikwere people to be the first son of Apara. Ekinigbo's name is also not connected to "Igbo" as in Igbo people. The tone structures between the two are also not the same. I'll have to inquire some more about it, because it may be that I am not remembering correctly.

Anyway, this is all about 'Igbo' identity, and I still maintain that the identity "Igbo" as we know it now, owes itself to the Europeans. It is unlikely that we would have "Igbo people" now, were it not for Europeans. That's the only thing I've actually been saying this entire time, and that is the one thing we should all agree on. Now, HOW it all happened is a different topic, up for debate, but the WHAT (being that we owe "Igbo" identity to Europeans) is common knowledge.

The word "Igbo" though, belongs to the northern/western Igbo culture areas.

^^^

Your point and analogy is very weak.

Why didn't the Europeans call the people Nmogho then when Nmogho is more southern?

How did the Europeans ignore all the names including Nmogho, then moved up Northern when they've never gone beyond Bonny in those days, picked the word Igbo and said oh, this sounds good for these people, lets name them by that name to the extend that Ngwa itself was called Igbo too?

Hold on, what are you talking about? Nmogho and Igbo are used by two different peoples for two different things. They aren't synonymous. So I do not get what you're asking. Did you not read and understand my post properly?

. . . but you used it as an analogy and even subtituted "Igbo" with "Nmogho" to make a point.

ChinenyeN:

Obiagu was asking how Europeans could have a name (Eboe/Igbo) for a people who (according to him) just used it as a 'loose' word. Well, let's see. People in Ngwa/Ndoki/Asa area refer to ALL of Cross River and Old Bende as 'Nmogho', though none in that area bear the name 'Nmogho'. Also, neither is there a clan by name of 'Nmogho'. Now let's take a look at Obiagu's question.

"how could it [Eboe/Igbo] become associated with the whole people by the Europeans when not a single clan, even within Anambra, is called Igbo?"

and let's structure it for the case of Ngwa/Ndoki

"how could it [Nmogho] become associated with a whole people by Ngwa/Ndoki when not a single clan, even within Cross Rivers and Old Bende, is called Nmogho?"

I take it that you didn't understand my analogy at all, then. Are you not reading for comprehension? or are just reading to argue?

You've not answered the more important point, how did they cross the southern Igbo groups to get the word Igbo?
Why would they pick a Northern word and called a Southern group, Ngwa, Igbo?

You are probably the one that didn't understand what you wrote.
Let another person that have no pre-knowledge of Nmogho read it and tell me if my assertion was wrong. Nmogho, a loose word, like Igbo, used to refer to a cluster of people that already have a name (like I used it for Igbo) and you ended up substituting Igbo with Nmogho to make a point.

If Igbo is northern like say Nmogho is southern, why was a Northern "loose" word used to refer to a southern group?