coogar:

a man said people who knew him years ago would testify he used to be a pauper but things have changed.
there must be a considerable progress in the lives of his congregation for them to be visiting his church. i have never heard about fireman until i saw the documentary.

There must be?

How?

You are the same person that made this challenge of someone else above?

coogar:

can you prove it?

by proving it, i don't mean gibberish or conjectures plucked from the stratosphere.
i mean hard evidence, financial statements, dodgy activities linked to him.

Now to even address your conjecture, many Nigerians, or rather millions of Nigerians go to these kind of churches since like the 90s. So according to your conjectural logic, Nigerian's lives must be at a peak as "there must be a considerable progress in the lives of his congregation for them to be visiting his church".

So according to your conjectural logic, life is great in Nigeria amongst people that go to "fire" churches?

coogar:

i wouldn't know but i doubt all of them feed on less than £1 per day as well.
in any given community, some are rich, some are poor.

So pastor na miliki, congregation is shuffering and shmiling?

So how has he, as you said, performed miracles and is bettering their lives to justify the opulence he is using their money to live large on?

coogar:

it could have been a gift from members of his congregation. the issue of "gifts" in nigeria is ambiguous.

Really?

You want to give reason why you think that is more of the case than a case of him using church funds to buy that for his enjoyment and for his marketing for more mugus looking for "bettering" and "progress" he BLATANTLY and CONNINGLY promises them?

coogar:

nigerians don't go to churches without signs and wonders. the narrator said his church is 2,000 members strong.
looting miracles? you have any evidence of this or what? that some pastors have looted does not mean all pastors loot. each case should be looked at separately.

What wonders and signs?

The chimeral ones?

The ones of secretaries pretending to be strangers that are disabled and then cured, which you now call a "miracle"?

I think you should be the one providing me with hard evidence, financial statements, legitimate activities linked to him to show he is earning enough money to afford his lifestyle.

Logic tells us that one can not afford a hummer on a pastor's salary. Hummers are quite expensive to buy and run.

Logic tells us that considering a lot of Nigerian false pastors that promise "bettering" and "progress" we never see are living opulent lives from stolen church funds suggests he is doing the same. The pastor life is great, the congregation never sees the "bettering" and "progress" promised.

Logic tells us these pastors (unlike that of real churches like Catholism) have no transparent reporting of how they expend the funds they collect.

So, tell me, how can he afford his lifestyle that is similar to the lifestyle of other criminal pastors?

coogar:

the secretary is a member of the church. are one's secretaries immuned to deliverance?
if he wanted to be shady, he would have performed a miracle to cure her blindness, her disability or something more outlandish. he just delivered her from demons. baby christians do that on a regular. it's no biggie.

So it is part of "bettering" and "progress" that he delivered her from "demons" by deceiving the people that she was a mystery woman that came for help?

In the same church service, he claimed to deliver a disabled man that the BBC recording crew claimed they saw before the service working about ablely and unassisted before the service? That is not shady in your world of "Bettering" and "Progress"?

Nigeria , home to the most idiotic people in the world, is the biggest lunatic asylum in the entire universe.
I hava argued and debated this many times.
Religion is a mistake, christianity is a fraud, and pentecostal christianity is a form of mental illness.

I came across the quote below here on Nl sometime ago and I copied it for futures references for others to read.

" Religion is  an insult to human dinity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil poeple doing bad things.But for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.
Besides, the more people cling to religion, the more they believe. The more they believe, the less they know. The less they know, the more silly they are.They more silly they are, the easier they can be governed. They more easier they are to be governeed, the more they can be exploited.The more exploited they are, the poorer they get. They poorer they get, the richer and mightier the domineering class get. They richer the domineering class get, the heavier their  yolk on the neck of people(mor.ons)."

Sagamite:

There must be?
How?
You are the same person that made this challenge of someone else above?

nigerians don't like suffering. the moment it becomes unbearable, they jump into the next miracle centre.
these people are not forced to worship - a fact we often ignore. so what is this pastor doing to have 2000 members by the balls to drop tithes/offering every week? he is not professor peller, is he?

Now to even address your conjecture, many Nigerians, or rather millions of Nigerians go to these kind of churches since like the 90s. So according to your conjectural logic, Nigerians lives must be at a peak as "there must be a considerable progress in the lives of his congregation for them to be visiting his church".

pastor fireman did not start his church in the 90s.
whatever that has been happening before he started his own church matters not. each case must be examined individually.

So according to your conjectural logic, life is great in Nigeria amongst people that go to "fire" churches?

fireman's church has nothing to do with what has been happening to the previous churches.

So pastor na miliki, congregation is shuffering and shmiling?

he is the leader of the church. the shepherd to his sheep.
obviously, he gets the perks from the members that have been blessed by his ministry.

So how has he, as you said, performed miracles and is bettering their lives to justify the opulence he is using their money to live large on?

his miracles will be measured by the opulent life he lives.
when people see miracles, they give out to get more miracles.
that is fixed!

Really?

yes, really.
the issue of "gifts" is not clear-cut in nigeria!
majority of these members just give out cos they believe their good fortunes come as a result of the pastor's prayers and blessings.

You want to give reason why you think that is more of the case than a case of him using church funds to by that for his enjoyment and for his marketing for more mugus looking for "bettering" and "posperity" he BLATANTLY and CONNINGLY promises them?

i don't know and you don't know.
it's a possibility but i know many just give out.
you saw the man that was interviewed. when asked how much he drops as tithes/offerings, he just smiled. . . .
logic says the man drops 10% of his income in his import/export business. if we have 20 business men like him in the church, the prices of hummer jeep, range sport and x6 become negligible.

What wonders and signs?
The chimeral ones?

ask the members of the church.

The ones of secretaries pretending to be strangers that are disabled and then cured?

how did she pretend she was a stranger?
are you saying members known to the pastor cannot receive miracles because they work for the pastor?

if a pastor performs a miracle on his own son/daughter then it's fake because they are his children?
what kind of logic is this?

I think you should be the one providing me with hard evidence, financial statements, legitimate activities linked to him to show he is earning enough money to afford his lifestyle.

the burden of proof is on you.
you are the one that brought these allegations without any hard evidence because some scrupulous pastors in the past have fleeced their members. this is why i said cases should be examined individually. that a certain clifford orji was a cannibal does not make any other orji you meet a flesh eater.

Logic tells us that one can not afford a hummer on a pastors salary.

when that pastor receives gifts then it becomes tedious.
how do you know if he bought the jeep on his salary? how do you know chief nnamdi nwabueze - the igbo steel billionaire did not give him the money to buy the hummer jeep?

Logic tells us that considering a lot of Nigerian false pastors that promise "bettering" and "prosperity" we never see are living opulent lives from stolen church funds suggests he is doing the same.

until proven guilty, it's premature to think dr. fireman is fraudulent.
considering a lot of nigerians in the united kingdom are into fraud or false documents suggests you are a fraudster by default?

So it is part of "bettering" and "prosperity" that he delivered her from "demons" by deception that she was a mystery woman that came for help?

she wasn't the only he delivered. and deliverance is not even a miracle.
it happens everywhere. a fraudulent pastor would have healed her blindness or make her hear cos she was born deaf!

In the same church service, he claimed to deliver a disabled man that the BBC recording crew claimed they saw before the service working baout able? That is not shady in your world of "Bettering" and "Prosperity"?

why didn't they show the man walking about before the service? you want to believe their words just like that?
like i said earlier, the documentary was poorly produced, biased and not coordinated.

please, watch derren brown's version on how to catch fraudulent pastors.
he did his own findings. he got an actor, trained him on how to fake as a pastor and so on and forth.

then he identified a church where the pastors trick people by revealing who they are and what they do.
that is how to catch a fake pastor - not telling me i saw a man walking about before the service but he's now been delivered from his disability.

any court would ask you to prove the man was walking about before the service.
video evidence, please?

I had no idea that Nigeria as a Country need SERIOUS INTERVENTION until I watched that piece last night. To see people become so gullible to believe anything and anyone was disheartening to say the least, such CROOKS shouldn't be allowed to DUPE the population but I could tell he had some "pull" with the cops judging by the "Police" escort pickup truck assigned to him.

Poverty and the hunger to aquire wealth by any means neccessary has turned our people to complete ZOMBIES. I would not even shake that kind of dude in a club let alone Church!

coogar:

you'd rather he's dressed in rags and climbing okada?

did jesus christ have 3 cars and wore expensive suits, gold wrist watches, infact from my understanding his father was a carpenter, so what are this people worshiping? cars and gold watches? jesus also said that a rich man will not go to haven

coogar:

nigerians don't like suffering. the moment it becomes unbearable, they jump into the next miracle centre.
these people are not forced to worship - a fact we often ignore. so what is this pastor doing to have 2000 members by the balls to drop tithes/offering every week? he is not professor peller, is he?

Really?

You are saying Nigerians are not gullible enough to be giving false hope and be feeding off that false hope from a so-called Man of God for a long time?

Really?

You have not been capable of observing that?

Who said they are being forced to worship?

coogar:

pastor fireman did not start his church in the 90s.
whatever that has been happening before he started his own church matters not. each case must be examined individually.

fireman's church has nothing to do with what has been happening to the previous churches.

Where did I say he started his church in the 90s?

So the fact he seems to operate the same model as the other numerous men of Con of:

- Start a church by claiming you have a "calling".
- Wear sharps suits and promise miracles and prosperity through the church and make services hype.
- Speak in tongues and perform elaborate displays of scam (that you call "miracles" with actors that claim they have an ailment that is not clearly visible, never ones that are visible.
- Tell the moronic congregation they have to give a fraction of all their earnings to be rewarded by God or before they can get God blessings.
- Suddenly, the pastors life gets very luxurious without explained source of income, while the congregation are spiritually fattened by "hope" that never materialises.
- Expand the scam to more mugus desperate for prosperity, miracles and salvation by hiring other Con men that will claim their lives have changed from his Gospel.

Does not matter?

coogar:

he is the leader of the church. the shepherd to his sheep.
obviously, he gets the perks from the members that have been blessed by his ministry.

And they keep on suffering?

His life becomes that of a millionaire while making empty promises through his army of scam men and the congregation's hardly change while he is living off their donations to God.

coogar:

his miracles will be measured by the opulent life he lives.
when people see miracles, they give out to get more miracles.
that is fixed!

His life is measured by the size of the church's funds based on people's donation to God!

Any sensible human will tell you that as the church grows, his opulent life will accelerate and he will get his private jet using the tithes of his following cretins looking for salvation.

coogar:

yes, really.
the issue of "gifts" is not clear-cut in nigeria!
majority of these members just give out cos they believe their good fortunes come as a result of the pastor's prayers and blessings.

So the pastor is conning them?

That is by the way, common sense will tell you that although members give something to their pastors,

No 1, it is unethical for a man of God to received luxuries for the work of God.

No 2, it is unlikely it is a member's gift that bought him a Hummer. His church does not seem like it has members that can afford that solely. Just like it is unlikely a member bought Oyedepo a private jet. It is church money. Such things are bought as a marketing tool for their gullible cretins in Nigeria they know they can deceive with so-called "prosperity" and "betterment".

coogar:

i don't know and you don't know.
it's a possibility but i know many just give out.
you saw the man that was interviewed. when asked how much he drops as tithes/offerings, he just smiled. . . .
logic says the man drops 10% of his income in his import/export business. if we have 20 business men like him in the church, the prices of hummer jeep, range sport and x6 become negligible.

ask the members of the church.

It seems the fact that the man you are using as example dropped his tithe for God and not for pastor to buy himself a Hummer eludes your reasoning.

coogar:

how did she pretend she was a stranger?
are you saying members known to the pastor cannot receive miracles because they work for the pastor?

if a pastor performs a miracle on his own son/daughter then it's fake because they are his children?
what kind of logic is this?

What logic process do you have not to realise it is fraud for a pastor to not highlight his relationship with the person rather than give the impression it was a stranger coming from unknown looking for miracle?

What difference is that from the East London conmen that get their friends coming to buy "quality goods" at their transient street stalls to encourage others to buy it.

[flash=400,350]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o1UXSxTjfo[/flash]

Is that a con or it is just a honest sale to a friend?

coogar:

the burden of proof is on you.
you are the one that brought these allegations without any hard evidence because some scrupulous pastors in the past have fleeced their members. this is why i said cases should be examined individually. that a certain clifford orji was a cannibal does not make any other orji you meet a flesh eater.

I am yet to see your hard evidence of "considerable progress in the lives of his congregation for them to be visiting his church" you claim.

Your reasoning is equivalent to saying you want to see hard evidence that a public official of a notoriously corrupt country like Nigeria, who was not rich before being appointed to a Minister position, all of a sudden can afford a private jet, 10 mansions in Monaco and 15 luxury cars while not having any other visible and legal source of income apart from his £15,000 a year government salary.

Now explain to me how smart it is to not be able to make conclusions.

coogar:

when that pastor receives gifts then it becomes tedious.
how do you know if he bought the jeep on his salary? how do you know chief nnamdi nwabueze - the igbo steel billionaire did not give him the money to buy the hummer jeep?

No 1, is there a billionaire in his congression?

No 2, if a member donates such to him, do you think it will not be announced and be common knowledge

No 3, do you think it does not make sense he announces it to show openness as a so-called clergyman?

coogar:

until proven guilty, it's premature to think dr. fireman is fraudulent.
considering a lot of nigerians in the united kingdom are into fraud or false documents suggests you are a fraudster by default?

Do you see me accusing Jarus or Oyb of looting church funds? Why the silly analogy?

If I was not employed in a great job and I am not from a rich family, yet I am blowing thousands at one go in clubs, buying a house worth £950K in Clapham and living above my means without any proof of source of my funds, yet you know I work in a junior clerk job that involves access to credit card details, what will a person with a brain conclude?

coogar:

she wasn't the only he delivered. and deliverance is not even a miracle.
it happens everywhere. a fraudulent pastor would have healed her blindness or make her hear cos she was born deaf!

And your point is?

He did not heal the disabled like other fraudulent pastors do?

coogar:

why didn't they show the man walking about before the service? you want to believe their words just like that?
like i said earlier, the documentary was poorly produced, biased and not coordinated.

You think they would have known who was going to be healed to film before the service?

coogar:

please, watch derren brown's version on how to catch fraudulent pastors.
he did his own findings. he got an actor, trained him on how to fake as a pastor and so on and forth.

then he identified a church where the pastors trick people by revealing who they are and what they do.
that is how to catch a fake pastor - not telling me i saw a man walking about before the service but he's now been delivered from his disability.

any court would ask you to prove the man was walking about before the service.
video evidence, please?

And you do not see the similarities between the frauds Derren exposed and Fireman?

GOD (in my opinion) is a Nigerian first before anywhere else, this is NOT discrimination but common sense; if your (believe there is) GOD is a foreigner then how is that meant to relate locally?

If you believe your God is a foreigner, then all local philosophies become NULL and VOID! This is a huge PROBLEM; you are more likely to wish a foreigner the best of fortune over your own brothers and sisters.

A large percent of these criminals(sic) are heartless and deserve to be tried in a court of law. Talking about court of law, did you know that you can sue anyone of these fraudsters?

What do you call somebody who sells you a product that they themselves do NOT subscibe to?

Many of us go around prosecuting our innocent citizens over witchcraft and wizardry when the truth is that the REAL evil magicians are the men/women claiming to be MAN OF gOD.

Why?

Because many of these people are aware of the fraudulent origins of the tools (bible, quaran, torah e.t.c) which was concucted to stupify their audience and choose instead to use this to their own greedy ambitions.

Dissimulation commonly takes the form of concealing one's ability in order to gain the element of surprise over an opponent.

The ability to stupify ones audience; if concealed, becomes almost impossible to defend against as it completely renders the victim helpless.

How is one suppose to fight against an opponent that one isnt even aware exists?

How does one fight an opponent that comes over as ones best friend?

"I am the richest man in the world"

Why?

Because i said so


Assertions is another of these tools that so-called MAN OF gOD will use to get into your psyche; dont fall for it, its TIME to FIGHT BACK.

ITS TIME TO TAKE BACK CONTROL

Our ancestors are responsible for civilisation as we know it; NOT an Asian OR European.

Our ancestors are responsible for our existence today; NOT an Asian OR European.

Our ancestors are responsible for the rest of the world's existence; NOT an Asian or European

Our tradition is primarily responsible for the world's development, NOT an Asian or European

Our culture and tradition pre-dates anything coming out of either Europe or Asia; do the maths.

^^^ Well said my brother.

Many of us seem unaware of the fact that it all started in Africa, mental slavery lasts way longer than physical slavery.

They came, stole our stuff, rebranded it as their own, a lot of us really need to go back to basics and learn the real HISTORY, look up the original Egyptians, Jews, etc.

oti-igba:

did jesus christ have 3 cars and wore expensive suits, gold wrist watches, infact from my understanding his father was a carpenter, so what are this people worshiping? cars and gold watches? jesus also said that a rich man will not go to haven

were there cars in the time of jesus?
did jesus not ride a beautiful donkey to jerusalem with people spreading their garments before him?
if i may ask, how do you spread the gospel without money? all those tv programmes you see on tv- what do you think pay for those? the community cocoa pods in your village?

Sagamite:

Really?
You are saying Nigerians are not gullible enough to be giving false hope and be feeding off that false hope from a so-called Man of God for a long time?
Really?
You have not been capable of observing that?
Who said they are being forced to worship?
Where did I say he started his church in the 90s?

nigerians are not that gullible to be enriching the vineyard of a pastor for long without any considerable progress in their lives. the church i saw in that documentary looks vibrant and the people there seem to be happy. besides, people are not forced to pay tithes and offering. why is no one addressing this fundamental issue? if the whole congregation decide not to put money for offering? will they be banned from coming to church?

So the fact he seems to operate the same model as the other numerous men of Con of:

- Start a church by claiming you have a "calling".
- Wear sharps suits and promise miracles and prosperity through the church and make services hype.
- Speak in tongues and perform elaborate displays of scam (that you call "miracles" with actors that claim they have an ailment that is not clearly visible, never ones that are visible.
- Tell the moronic congregation they have to give a fraction of all their earnings to be rewarded by God or before they can get God blessings.
- Suddenly, the pastors life gets very luxurious without explained source of income, while the congregation are spiritually fattened by "hope" that never materialises.
- Expand the scam to more mugus desperate for prosperity, miracles and salvation by hiring other Con men that will claim their lives have changed from his Gospel.

Does not matter?

the modus operandi might look the same but then something has to pay the bills for spreading the gospel. unless you want to tell me every church in nigeria or every pastor in nigeria is fraudulent, this is the same procedure pastors use to expand their churches and pull in more crowd. nigeria is a society where people's wisdom are measured with the amount of money they have. people will flee from a scruffy looking pastor and you know it.

And they keep on suffering?

suffer? how?
did anyone complain of suffering in the documentary?

His life becomes that of a millionaire while making empty promises through his army of scam men and the congregation's hardly change while he is living off their donations to God. His life is measured by the size of the church's funds based on people's donation to God!

what makes you think the congregation hardly change? he couldn't have started his ministry with 2,000 strong members. 10 became 20 and 20 grew exponentially over the years. other people see positive changes in the lives of their neighbours and they quickly join the ship to receive their own miracles.

Any sensible human will tell you that as the church grows, his opulent life will accelerate and he will get his private jet using the tithes of his following cretins looking for salvation.
So the pastor is conning them?

his opulent life will accelerate which he would have deserved. his teachings, his ministries, his miracles are bettering lives. i really don't see why nigerians generally have issues with pastors living a life of opulence. must they die in stark poverty?

That is by the way, common sense will tell you that although members give something to their pastors,

No 1, it is unethical for a man of God to received luxuries for the work of God.

No 2, it is unlikely it is a member's gift that bought him a Hummer. His church does not seem like it has members that can afford that solely. Just like it is unlikely a member bought Oyedepo a private jet. It is church money. Such things are bought as a marketing tool for their gullible cretins in Nigeria they know they can deceive with so-called "prosperity" and "betterment".

it's not unethical for a pastor to receive luxuries for the work he does. if he's a full-time pastor, his whole life is dedicated to the church. something must pay his bills and this is where the concept of paying tithes/offering emanated from. money is spent putting that place together. the musical instruments, the chairs, the video cameras, other equipments, etc. who do you think pay for all those stuffs every sunday?

It seems the fact that the man you are using as example dropped his tithe for God and not for pastor to buy himself a Hummer eludes your reasoning.

but the money will not be burnt as a sacrifice to God. it will be used to expand and improve his ministry. that fact eludes you as well.
when people pay tithe in God's house - they do not expect the money to be put on a jet plane travelling to heaven. they expect it to be used to beautify the church and pay for the services the church needs.

What logic process do you have not to realise it is fraud for a pastor to not highlight his relationship with the person rather than give the impression it was a stranger coming from unknown looking for miracle?

this is hilarious!
the pastor asked everyone with a relationship problem to step out. his secretary is among the people who stepped out. he prayed for them generally and the secretary appeared to have demons terrorizing her. seriously, where is the fraud in this?

What difference is that from the East London conmen that get their friends coming to buy "quality goods" at their transient street stalls to encourage others to buy it.

[flash=400,350]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o1UXSxTjfo[/flash]

Is that a con or it is just a honest sale to a friend?

you seriously wanna compare this to what happens in the church?

I am yet to see your hard evidence of "considerable progress in the lives of his congregation for them to be visiting his church" you claim.

if there's no progress, they wouldn't be going there every week.
for 2,000 people who are successful in the various businesses they do to be mumu will take a lot of magical spell cast on them. i am going by what the man interviewed said. you can tell that man is successful and does not mind putting 10% of his income in the church. if he believes that is what blesses his business, who are we to think he's a mugu?

Your reasoning is equivalent to saying you want to see hard evidence that a public official of a notoriously corrupt country like Nigeria, who was not rich before being appointed to a [b]Minister position[/b], all of a sudden can afford a private jet, 10 mansions in Monaco and 15 luxury cars while not having any other visible and legal source of income apart from his £15,000 a year government salary.

this analogy is not quite it.
this is church not politics and ministers must earn more than £15k per annum in nigeria.

and if i were investigating a case like the scenario above. i will examine his case separately from the hundreds of thousands of public officers who have embezzled money in the past. this is what i am asking you to do concerning pastor fireman. that pastor nwabueze has stolen church funds before in 2005 does not make pastor fireman a rogue.

Now explain to me how smart it is to not be able to make conclusions.
No 1, is there a billionaire in his congression?

who knows? there may be a billionaire in his church.
besides, fireman doesn't need a billionaire in his church to afford the opulent life he's living. a score of multi-millionaires in his congregation is enough to provide the hummer and the other suv-s

No 2, if a member donates such to him, do you think it will not be announced and be common knowledge

people who donate such stuffs do it anonymously. the holy book said if you donate and you announce yourself by showing off, you have already claimed your reward. but if you make such donations anonymously, then a heavenly reward awaits the donor. ask around - big donors don't make announcements

No 3, do you think it does not make sense he announces it to show openness as a so-called clergyman?

if the donor wants to be anonymous then he shall remain anonymous.
the pastor will just say "a member of our church donated so so so and so. praise the lord!"

Do you see me accusing Jarus or Oyb of looting church funds? Why the silly analogy?

jarus and oyb don't have churches they run.
if they run one and they are prosperous, you will accuse them of looting.

If I was not employed in a great job and I am not from a rich family, yet I am blowing thousands at one go in clubs, buying a house worth £950K in Clapham and living above my means without any proof of source of my funds, yet you know I work in a junior clerk job that involves access to credit card details, what will a person with a brain conclude?

a proud winner of the euromillion jackpot!
is that impossibe? why should i automatically think you are a fraudster because your income does not match your spendings?
we need to get this mentality out of our heads.

And your point is?
He did not heal the disabled like other fraudulent pastors do?

do we know for certain the disabled guy was planted in the church or he was fake?

You think they would have known who was going to be healed to film before the service?

they went to nigeria to expose fraudulent pastors in the first place. i was expecting them to show a blatant act fraudulent practise in the church but i saw none of that. seyi was just mesmerized at the fact that people actually come out in droves and put money in the church - which is irrelevant.

in germany, the government introduced church tax. 6-9% of the income of the church members are taxed by the government and given to the church. i am beginning to think nigeria should adopt that method. maybe then people would spare pastors and stop accusing all of them as fraudsters. mind, i am not saying most of them are not rogues - of course they are. but let's stop painting each and everyone with the same brush!

And you do not see the similarities between the frauds Derren exposed and Fireman?

no similarity!
the fraud derren exposed was a church where members are asked to fill a form. their names and addresses are taken down.
then the technical department communicate with the pastor through his ear-piece and tell the pastor what to say about any random member he chose to speak to. watch that clip again and see broad day light fraud.

derren caught him by filling a fake name and a fake address.
the pastor then called derren out - then mentioned the name derren had filled in the card which was fake.
that to me is exposing a fraudster. no gimmicks, no abracadabra. i expect seyi rhodes to have done a similar thing to pastor fireman. but he just concluded even b4 he got to nigeria that pastor fireman must be fraudulent. that to me is bullshyte!

coogar:

were their cars in the name of jesus?
did jesus not ride a beautiful donkey to jerusalem with people spreading their garments before him?
if i may ask, how do you spread the gospel without money? all those tv programmes you see on tv- what do you think pay for those? the community cocoa pods in your village 

there is no need to insult me or my village, i am just making my own opinion, stick to the point ok, did you not read in bible were christ told the rich man to sell every thing he has and give all away if he wants to go to haven obviously DR FIREMAN will not smell haven,besides DR FIREMAN is using the money to buy cars instead of using it to spread the word as you have suggested

oti-igba:

  there is no need to insult me or my village, i am just making my own opinion, stick to the point ok, [b]did you not read in bible were christ told the rich man to sell every thing he has and give all away if he wants to go to haven [/b]obviously DR FIREMAN will not smell haven,besides DR FIREMAN is using the money to buy cars instead of using it to spread the word as you have suggested

the exact message pastor fireman is asking his congregation to do. only this time, he asks for their 10% to improve the church and expand the gospel.

waow!!!! I have missed so much. Please before we go ahead to start talking about the issue of money taken in casinos/churches i would love to recomend a book to everyone. The title of the book is the beautiful bride written by Muyiwa Oguntoyinbo, u can get the book fron laterna bookshop. After reading the book you will see what and how tithes and offerings should be administered.

I used to be as gullible as the members of fireman church, but now i have got some brains. Church for me = 0

@ coogar,
Fireman is a CON man believe it or not, at the strategy meeting with the wannabe fake pastors, these were his words " advertising what the church can do in terms of miracles and healing, generating money from congregation is key to growth and the surplus money will be used to open more branches" he's a clever man, he's not running a business, he's running a business to generate more money for himself.

the people he claimed to cure, why did they decline an interview with the reporter? he claimed to have raised people from the dead but with no evidence to back it off. i won' t be shocked if you are one of the fake pastors? i don't understand why people like you want to believe in fake pastors and fake miracles.

dekung:

waow!!!! I have missed so much. Please before we go ahead to start talking about the issue of money taken in casinos/churches i would love to recomend a book to everyone. The title of the book is the beautiful bride written by Muyiwa Oguntoyinbo, u can get the book fron laterna bookshop. After reading the book you will see what and how tithes and offerings should be administered.

I used to be as gullible as the members of fireman church, but now i have got some brains. Church for me = 0

do you mind sharing your experience on this forum.

thameamead:


@ coogar,
Fireman is a CON man believe it or not, at the strategy meeting with the wannabe fake pastors, these were his words " advertising what the church can do in terms of miracles and healing, generating money from congregation is key to growth and the surplus money will be used to open more branches" he's a clever man, he's not running a business, he's running a business to generate more money for himself.

how is this fraudulent. he said generating money from congregation is key to growth and the surplus cash will be used to open more branches.
did he say surplus money will be used to buy hummer jeeps and 20-bedroom mansions? is this not the way all the churches in the world grew and the gospel expanded? who do you think pay for all those televangelists. all those tv evangelism you see on tv channels @ prime time, where do you think they get the money from? from the local government?

the people he claimed to cure, why did they decline an interview with the reporter?

why would they talk to a reporter about their miracle?
who is the reporter? where does he come from? what gives him any authority to interview anyone?
go to church of england with a camera and ask the congregation you want to interview them and let's see how they would respond. . . .

he claimed to have raised people from the dead but with no evidence to back it off.

so he should have sent dvds to seyi rhodes showing how he raises people from the dead?
more obtuse reasoning from a supposed learned person.

i won' t be shocked if you are one of the fake pastors? i don't understand why people like you want to believe in fake pastors and fake miracles. 

and yet more obtuse thoughts. . . . .you'd better attack the issue and not the personality.
when your arguments become watery, the way out is to throw shots in the dark. so because i am on the other side of the argument automatically makes me a fake pastor? you are super-daft! nigeria will continue to remain stagnant with people like you.

Na wa oo

dayokanu:

Na wa oo

My brother na big time wa oo.

Its only dumb for anyone to still insist Pastor Fireman abi na Freeman is real.

HABA How Gullible Can People Be

coogar:

nigerians are not that gullible to be enriching the vineyard of a pastor for long without any considerable progress in their lives. the church i saw in that documentary looks vibrant and the people there seem to be happy. besides, people are not forced to pay tithes and offering. why is no one addressing this fundamental issue? if the whole congregation decide not to put money for offering? will they be banned from coming to church?

They are that gullible.

Let me give you facts.

- Nigeria is regarded as one of the most religious place in the world. So Nigerians are very religious.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/3490490.stm

- Many go to churches that promise the prosperity and progress.

- Many of these churches have existed for decades and have large and GROWING followership.

- Yet, the lives of Nigerians have not improved in those decades, 80% live on less than 2% a day, far more than the roughly 48% in 1980.

- The pastors of the churches are some of the richest in the world and live an Affluent life.

GULLIBLE!

People looking vibrant and happy on video is not proof of progress in their lives. If you know anything about Nigeria, you will know people wear their best attire for church service and the service is a relief and point of hope from the stress of Nigerian life for those foolishly looking for "salvation", "progress", "prosperity" and "deliverance".

coogar:

the modus operandi might look the same but then something has to pay the bills for spreading the gospel. unless you want to tell me every church in nigeria or every pastor in nigeria is fraudulent, this is the same procedure pastors use to expand their churches and pull in more crowd. nigeria is a society where people's wisdom are measured with the amount of money they have. people will flee from a scruffy looking pastor and you know it.

So you admit, he is using church funds for luxurious living as a marketing tool for his church's growth?

Good, we are getting there. At least you got the first point. We now need to get you to get the second point that such acts is unprincipled and criminal when you collect money on behalf of God.

coogar:

suffer? how?
did anyone complain of suffering in the documentary?

70% live on less than $1 a day. 80% live on less than $2 a day. 99% live on less than $10 a day.

Life is hard. They are not driving Hummers despite working for their money.

coogar:

what makes you think the congregation hardly change? he couldn't have started his ministry with 2,000 strong members. 10 became 20 and 20 grew exponentially over the years. other people see positive changes in the lives of their neighbours and they quickly join the ship to receive their own miracles.
his opulent life will accelerate which he would have deserved. his teachings, his ministries, his miracles are bettering lives. i really don't see why nigerians generally have issues with pastors living a life of opulence. must they die in stark poverty?

You didn't get me. I meant his congregation's "lives" hardly change (as in improve), not congregation size changing.

It seems your reasoning does not enable you to realise ministry should not be an avenue for riches. The "Second point" I was talking about you getting above. If you want to be rich, go and start a business. And, REMEMBER, a church should not be the business. Using a church funds to live an opulent life is a con.

What don't you understand about that?

coogar:

it's not unethical for a pastor to receive luxuries for the work he does. if he's a full-time pastor, his whole life is dedicated to the church. something must pay his bills and this is where the concept of paying tithes/offering emanated from. money is spent putting that place together. the musical instruments, the chairs, the video cameras, other equipments, etc. who do you think pay for all those stuffs every sunday?

Yes, church tithe is meant for church work (e.g. the musical instruments, the chairs, the video cameras, other equipments, etc) and even the pastor's salary. It is not meant to enable the pastor live an opulent life that the average congregation member donating his sweat can only dream off despite all the pastor's false promises.

coogar:

but the money will not be burnt as a sacrifice to God. it will be used to expand and improve his ministry. that fact eludes you as well.
when people pay tithe in God's house - they do not expect the money to be put on a jet plane travelling to heaven. they expect it to be used to beautify the church and pay for the services the church needs.

Sane and non-gullible people expect the church funds to be used for expanding the church, its works and its good deeds JUDICIOUSLY, not for the pastor to use it to live a high-life.

Instead of buying a private jet, pastor's inclined to buy a jet should buy a commercial jet to carry more people or an air ambulance for good deeds.

Instead of buying a hummer, pastor's inclined to buy a vehicle should buy 4 buses that go to different corners of the state and pick up people without cars for church service and save them the cost of transportation.

Do you get it?

coogar:

this is hilarious!
the pastor asked everyone with a relationship problem to step out. his secretary is among the people who stepped out. he prayed for them generally and the secretary appeared to have demons terrorizing her. seriously, where is the fraud in this?

you seriously wanna compare this to what happens in the church?

Really.

So the street scammer asked people that want to buy his fake products to pay, his friend comes forward and pays, he appears to think the product is fantastic and vocalises it. How is that different? Sure, according to your reasoning, you think the they are not scammers?

coogar:

if there's no progress, they wouldn't be going there every week.
for 2,000 people who are successful in the various businesses they do to be mumu will take a lot of magical spell cast on them. i am going by what the man interviewed said. you can tell that man is successful and does not mind putting 10% of his income in the church. if he believes that is what blesses his business, who are we to think he's a mugu?

There are millions of Nigeria like this 2000 that go to weekend service every week in Nigeria. Most of them poor. They block the Lagos-Ibadan expressway. So, according to your logic, they wouldn't be going there "every week except there is progress". Nigeria must be a great place to live then?

coogar:

this analogy is not quite it.
this is church not politics and ministers must earn more than £15k per annum in nigeria.

and if i were investigating a case like the scenario above. i will examine his case separately from the hundreds of thousands of public officers who have embezzled money in the past. this is what i am asking you to do concerning pastor fireman. that pastor nwabueze has stolen church funds before in 2005 does not make pastor fireman a rogue.

£15K is N3.75m. Nigerian ministers make less than N3m as salary but that is by the way and irrelevant. Lets say they even make £150K (more than the UK PM), the point is how can they afford a private jet? So drop irrelevant points.

So this is a church and not politics? And so what? Does that not tell you that a pastor is likely to make far less than a Nigerian Minister? So how come the pastor can afford a Hummer?

So are you telling me you think IBB and Odili were not corrupt?

coogar:

who knows? there may be a billionaire in his church.
besides, fireman doesn't need a billionaire in his church to afford the opulent life he's living. a score of multi-millionaires in his congregation is enough to provide the hummer and the other suv-s

They is no evidence of a billionaire in his church.

And if one has to make assumptions, it is ridiculous and lame to assume there is one considering the size of the church, the lack of hint of one and the poverty levels of the nation making it unlikely. Make smart assumptions.

coogar:

[b]people who donate such stuffs do it anonymously. the holy book said if you donate and you announce yourself by showing off, you have already claimed your reward. [/b]but if you make such donations anonymously, then a heavenly reward awaits the donor. ask around - big donors don't make announcements

if the donor wants to be anonymous then he shall remain anonymous.
the pastor will just say "a member of our church donated so so so and so. praise the lord!"

Show me the part of the holy book that said it.

coogar:

jarus and oyb don't have churches they run.
if they run one and they are prosperous, you will accuse them of looting.

Exactly! So your analogy about me living in the UK was senseless. The reason I can rationally and intelligently assume Fireman is a con is because he has the same modus operandi of other cons and he is living the same lifestyle.

coogar:

a proud winner of the euromillion jackpot!
is that impossibe? why should i automatically think you are a fraudster because your income does not match your spendings?
we need to get this mentality out of our heads.

What are the odds of winning the Euromillion? There are better odds off lightning striking you.

Compare the Euromillion odds to the odds that a Nigerian that is living the high-life, while making peanuts, is not from a rich family and works with access to credit card details is engaged in credit card fraud.

Make sensible assumptions when you need to make one.

coogar:

do we know for certain the disabled guy was planted in the church or he was fake?

The disabled guy was the same on the BBC crew saw walking before the service. Do you know a scam when you see one?

coogar:

they went to nigeria to expose fraudulent pastors in the first place. i was expecting them to show a blatant act fraudulent practise in the church but i saw none of that. seyi was just mesmerized at the fact that people actually come out in droves and put money in the church - which is irrelevant.

in germany, the government introduced church tax. 6-9% of the income of the church members are taxed by the government and given to the church. i am beginning to think nigeria should adopt that method. maybe then people would spare pastors and stop accusing all of them as fraudsters. mind, i am not saying most of them are not rogues - of course they are. but let's stop painting each and everyone with the same brush!

Let me edjucate you now, if a pastor:

- keeps making incredible, outrageous and unprovable promises.
- is heavily focused on asking for money (and devicing ways for getting money) to be donated by the congregation.
- starts living a luxurious life he did not have before he started the church and which 99% of the congregation can not afford.
- does not have any public accounting of how church money is spent.

HE IS A ROGUE!

Do you understand?

coogar:

no similarity!
the fraud derren exposed was a church where members are asked to fill a form. their names and addresses are taken down.
then the technical department communicate with the pastor through his ear-piece and tell the pastor what to say about any random member he chose to speak to. watch that clip again and see broad day light fraud.

derren caught him by filling a fake name and a fake address.
the pastor then called derren out - then mentioned the name derren had filled in the card which was fake.
that to me is exposing a fraudster. no gimmicks, no abracadabra. i expect seyi rhodes to have done a similar thing to pastor fireman. but he just concluded even b4 he got to nigeria that pastor fireman must be fraudulent. that to me is bullshyte!

The fraud darren exposed at a high-level was:

Pastors that:

- keep making incredible, outrageous and unprovable promises.
- are heavily focused on asking for money (and devicing ways for getting money) to be donated by the congregation.
- start living luxurious lives they did not have before they started the church and which 99% of the congregation can not afford.
- do not have any public accounting of how church money is spent.

Are people still defending this fraudster 

Sagamite:

They are that gullible.

i pity nigerians!

Let me give you facts.

- Nigeria is regarded as one of the most religious place in the world. So Nigerians are very religious.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/3490490.stm

- Many go to churches that promise the prosperity and progress.

- Many of these churches have existed for decades and have large and GROWING followership.

- Yet, the lives of Nigerians have not improved in those decades, 80% live on less than 2% a day, far more than the roughly 48% in 1980.

- The pastors of the churches are some of the richest in the world and live an Affluent life.

GULLIBLE!

unless you have any substantial proof that people of the other religions are living better than christians in nigeria, these statistics don't mean much.
pastors are mainly rogues, isn't it? imams don't flex muscles like pastors neither do babalawos and other idol worshippers. so why aren't worshippers of other gods richer than the average christian in nigeria? do you have an answer to that?

People looking vibrant and happy on video is not proof of progress in their lives. If you know anything about Nigeria, you will know people wear their best attire for church service and the service is a relief and point of hope from the stress of Nigerian life for those foolishly looking for "salvation", "progress", "prosperity" and "deliverance".

i admit they do dress in their best attire for church service but do they have to keep happy faces too?
mind, these people drop 10% of their income every month plus offering and other church projects lined in store. where do they get these money.
remember - the holy scriptures say:

"So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver"(2 Corinthians 9:7) and  "Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you" (Luke 6:38)

if christians use a teaspoon to measure out their giving, God will use a teaspoon to measure out their blessings. if christians use a dump-truck to give, God will use a dump-truck to bless them spiritually.

sagamite, to actually call these cheerful givers mugu and gullible is wrong and it's against their scriptures - the things they believe in and will always believe in.

So you admit, he is using church funds for luxurious living as a marketing tool for his church's growth?

there's nothing bad in that.
something has to attract the average unbeliever to come to church and in a poverty-ridden state like nigeria, wealth attracts. when we see a young man riding jeeps and living a luxurious life, we all want to be like him. this brings multitudes of sheep to the church and they become converts!

Good, we are getting there. At least you got the first point. We now need to get you to get the second point that such acts is unprincipled and criminal when you collect money on behalf of God.

it is not unprincipled, they are actually laws in the scriptures.
refer to the bible quotes above.

70% live on less than $1 a day. 80% live on less than $2 a day. 99% live on less than $10 a day.

these statistics mean nothing. the holy book directs them to give as much as they want.
they are not mugus unless you don't believe the bible then there's no point for me to debate any further.

Life is hard. They are not driving Hummers despite working for their money.

in no time, they would.
that is the essence of giving out(without grudges or complaints) so they can be rewarded.

You didn't get me. I meant his congregation's "lives" hardly change (as in improve), not congregation size changing.

how do you know this? i have never heard of this man or his ministry until the channel 4 documentary. have you?

It seems your reasoning does not enable you to realise ministry should not be an avenue for riches. The "Second point" I was talking about you getting above. If you want to be rich, go and start a business. And, REMEMBER, a church should not be the business. Using a church funds to live an opulent life is a con.

so what then happens to all the money the congregation contribute every week to expand and improve the welfare of the elders of the church?
if the members want their pastor to have a good house, a fleet of exotic cars and private jets, who are we to say no? are you aware people actually give pastors their personal cars, money, other incentives to improve the church?

Yes, church tithe is meant for church work (e.g. the musical instruments, the chairs, the video cameras, other equipments, etc) and even the pastor's salary. It is not meant to enable the pastor live an opulent life that the average congregation member donating his sweat can only dream off despite all the pastor's false promises.

you make this sound as if the pastor takes the ultimate decision to buy this and that - no. that is not the case.
there's a council or a board that decides what to do with the surplus. they make the decision to improve the welfare of their pastors or buy him a private jet to expand the ministry. only in community churches of 12 member congregation can a pastor make the ultimate decision to squander the money entrusted to him by his flock.

Sane and non-gullible people expect the church funds to be used for expanding the church, its works and its good deeds JUDICIOUSLY, not for the pastor to use it to live a high-life.
Instead of buying a private jet, pastor's inclined to buy a jet should buy a commercial jet to carry more people or an air ambulance for good deeds.

it's the same sane and non-gullible people who decide to buy the pastor what he uses. he does not make such decisions.
all those big churches have different boards and elders council who make these decisions. they have accountants, consultants, auditors, project managers etc

Instead of buying a hummer, pastor's inclined to buy a vehicle should buy 4 buses that go to different corners of the state and pick up people without cars for church service and save them the cost of transportation.

what makes you think they don't do this? my church has about 8 luxurious buses that go to different corners of my borough to pick people up and drop them back. my church pays the rent/mortgage of jobless folks in the church and connect them with jobs. there are rogue churches and there are living churches. don't paint all of them with the same brush is all i am asking here.

So the street scammer asked people that want to buy his fake products to pay, his friend comes forward and pays, he appears to think the product is fantastic and vocalises it. How is that different? Sure, according to your reasoning, you think the they are not scammers?

it's a different ball game, sagamite.
people who pay in church do so willingly - regardless of how the money is being used. what happens to the money is between God and the people keeping the money. it should not concern the giver. when you give without grudges, there's no mugu-con man

There are millions of Nigeria like this 2000 that go to weekend service every week in Nigeria. Most of them poor. They block the Lagos-Ibadan expressway. So, according to your logic, they wouldn't be going there "every week except there is progress". Nigeria must be a great place to live then?

according to the scriptures they religiously believe, they go there and give without grudges. this lagos-ibadan expressway religious service has hosted state governors, ministers, commissioners, top celebrities. they are all mugus too?

£15K is N3.75m. Nigerian ministers make less than N3m as salary but that is by the way and irrelevant. Lets say they even make £150K (more than the UK PM), the point is how can they afford a private jet? So drop irrelevant points.

people don't have savings? because i make £100 a day now means i don't have over £135,000 in savings over the years?
besides, don't people make contribution or must the private jet come from one individual - the nigerian minister?
stop this straws-clutching.

So this is a church and not politics? And so what? Does that not tell you that a pastor is likely to make far less than a Nigerian Minister? So how come the pastor can afford a Hummer?

i doubt any nigerian minister can make as much as the big churches in nigeria.
rccg, christ embassy, winners chapel are big churches with millions of members who give on the regular to expand the ministry.
how much is a hummer if i may ask?

So are you telling me you think IBB and Odili were not corrupt?

is fashola corrupt? was awolowo corrupt?
aren't they politicians like dimeji bankole?

should every politician from ogun state be painted with the same brush because bankole embezzled obscene amounts of money?

They is no evidence of a billionaire in his church.

he doesn't need a billionaire, sagamite.
if i am attending dr fireman's church and i was in pursuit of a multi-million naira contract and the contract came through. . . via his prayers.
i am required to drop 10% of that contract. so what is a hummer in comparison to that? how much is a hummer?

And if one has to make assumptions, it is ridiculous and lame to assume there is one considering the size of the church, the lack of hint of one and the poverty levels of the nation making it unlikely. Make smart assumptions.

there are billionaires in nigeria and you can find them in any corner of the country.

Show me the part of the holy book that said it.

matthew 6:1-4

1 When you do good deeds, don't try to show off. If you do, you won't get a reward from your Father in heaven.

2 When you give to the poor, don't blow a loud horn. That's what show-offs do in the meeting places and on the street corners, because they are always looking for praise. I can assure you that they already have their reward.

3 When you give to the poor, don't let anyone know about it.

4 Then your gift will be given in secret. Your Father knows what is done in secret, and he will reward you.

do you still think all christians are mugus or the holy bible is a book of fraud?

Exactly! So your analogy about me living in the UK was senseless. The reason I can rationally and intelligently assume Fireman is a con is because he has the same modus operandi of other cons and he is living the same lifestyle.

but this same modus operandi is the standard of every church in nigeria.
which means you think the whole christianity thing is a fraud, right?

What are the odds of winning the Euromillion? There are better odds off lightning striking you.

not necessarily the grand-prize.
people win the crumbs(hundreds of thousand pounds) of it twice a week. go to their website and see for yourself.

Compare the Euromillion odds to the odds that a Nigerian that is living the high-life, while making peanuts, is not from a rich family and works with access to credit card details is engaged in credit card fraud.

euromillion isn't the only "get rich quickly" scheme we have in the world.
there are other various schemes people get into and most of the time, it's the poor folks who win.

Make sensible assumptions when you need to make one.
The disabled guy was the same on the BBC crew saw walking before the service. Do you know a scam when you see one?

word of mouth - i only believe what i see on camera.
if you are not an eye witness, then you are a lie witness.
you are educated and sensible. from what you have seen in the documentary - do you think it's enough to convict pastor fireman in any court of law?

i need your yes/no.

Let me edjucate you now, if a pastor:

- keeps making incredible, outrageous and unprovable promises.
- is heavily focused on asking for money (and devicing ways for getting money) to be donated by the congregation.
- starts living a luxurious life he did not have before he started the church and which 99% of the congregation can not afford.
- does not have any public accounting of how church money is spent.

HE IS A ROGUE!

Do you understand?

i understand that perfectly but how do you know dr fireman ticks all the huge points you have made here.
you don't know for sure if he keeps the account of the church revenue, you don't know for sure what his congregation can afford, you don't know for sure if he makes the ultimate decision on what to spend the money on. how do you then conclude he is a rogue?

The fraud darren exposed at a high-level was:

Pastors that:

- keep making incredible, outrageous and unprovable promises.
- are heavily focused on asking for money (and devicing ways for getting money) to be donated by the congregation.
- start living luxurious lives they did not have before they started the church and which 99% of the congregation can not afford.
- do not have any public accounting of how church money is spent.

and darren exposed them by actually going into their churches to reveal the lies, deceit and the obscene tricks these con men use to fleece their sheep. a pastor using an ear piece to reveal information of the congregation and pretended it was the holy spirit that told him is a fraud in black and white. this is what i would expect from any documentary about pastor fireman. not conjectures, past history of other rogue pastors or 4X4 matrix of sniffing a rogue pastor.

^^^

Long winded GARBAGE!

This "coogar" dude/woman might be dr. fireman's NL ID, how else could any SANE person defend that nonsense? Poverty really is a disease that infects the brain cells making them redundant.

I will not even dash this scammer my urine let alone hard-earned cash.

ogajim:

^^^
Long winded GARBAGE!

This "coogar" dude/woman might be dr. fireman's NL ID, how else could any SANE person defend that nonsense? Poverty really is a disease that infects the brain cells making them redundant.

I will not even dash this scammer my urine let alone hard-earned cash.

you must have an attention span shorter than a congolese midget.

if i defend gadaffi's regime here, i must be him or one of his sons, right?
yet you wonder why we call you a tool!

I just watched the documentary. Ol' boy, Nigerians are gullible. That's a perfect combo of poverty, illiteracy, greed & 1st-class foolishness. How can you give N20 to a pastor who drives around in 3 luxury SUVs worth N40m

More annoying is the fact that some people even defend these fraudsters called pastors. Can you imagine the numbers of girls in that congregation that man would be sleeping with? Why do you need so many bodyguards if you're working for God? Can't God protect you? Don't people use their brains anymore?

On a more serious note, I think Lagos state govt should start taxing churches, based on the size of their congregations. There are simply too many churches in Lagos. I moved out of my last house because I was surrounded by 3 churches. Always making noise every Fri-Sat night, so much that I could hardly sleep. Why are we Africans so backward?

coogar:

i pity nigerians!

unless you have any substantial proof that people of the other religions are living better than christians in nigeria, these statistics don't mean much.
pastors are mainly rogues, isn't it? imams don't flex muscles like pastors neither do babalawos and other idol worshippers. so why aren't worshippers of other gods richer than the average christian in nigeria? do you have an answer to that?

I don't need to show you anything because what I am telling you is that religion does not improve your life in anyway. So any pastor telling you it will as long as you invest some money is a rogue. Money he then uses to live in Luxury.

You are the one that needs to provide substantial proof that pentecostal Xtians like the ones of Fireman are living better lives. Show they are getting "betterment", just like Fireman is with their money.

coogar:

i admit they do dress in their best attire for church service but do they have to keep happy faces too?
mind, these people drop 10% of their income every month plus offering and other church projects lined in store. where do they get these money.
remember - the holy scriptures say:

"So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver"(2 Corinthians 9:7) and  "Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you" (Luke 6:38)

if christians use a teaspoon to measure out their giving, God will use a teaspoon to measure out their blessings. if christians use a dump-truck to give, God will use a dump-truck to bless them spiritually.

sagamite, to actually call these cheerful givers mugu and gullible is wrong and it's against their scriptures - the things they believe in and will always believe in.

They smile when they watch football, don't they?

They smile when Mykel Yaksin is played on the radio, don't they?

Is the proof of "progress in their lives"?

So your conclusion that "their lives must be progressing because they are smiling in church" is lame. Part of the modus operandi farce of these fake churches (pentecostal) is to provide a fun and funky service that people enjoy. That is one of the core capabilities and differentiation strategy to attract people from real churches(which are boring).

coogar:

there's nothing bad in that.
something has to attract the average unbeliever to come to church and in a poverty-ridden state like nigeria, wealth attracts. when we see a young man riding jeeps and living a luxurious life, we all want to be like him. this brings multitudes of sheep to the church and they become converts!

What should attract people to the scripture is the scripture, warmth and honesty, not ostentatious living and lies of a conman looting funds donated to the church.

coogar:

it is not unprincipled, they are actually laws in the scriptures.
refer to the bible quotes above.

What part of that scriptures says the pastor should use church funds to live expensively to attract members?

coogar:

these statistics mean nothing. the holy book directs them to give as much as they want.
they are not mugus unless you don't believe the bible then there's no point for me to debate any further.

Are you on drugs?

The statistics mean nothing? I thought you said these churches bring "progress" and "betterment" to followers. Nigerians have been attending these churches and they are getting worse and you say the stats don't matter?

Where you not the one that ask people for hard facts? When it is given it has no meaning?

coogar:

in no time, they would.
that is the essence of giving out(without grudges or complaints) so they can be rewarded.

Like Nigerians have had better lives since they have in the last 2 decades of carrying religion on their head?

Rubbish!

coogar:

how do you know this? i have never heard of this man or his ministry until the channel 4 documentary. have you?

What did I tell you about smart assumptions?

coogar:

so what then happens to all the money the congregation contribute every week to expand and improve the welfare of the elders of the church?
if the members want their pastor to have a good house, a fleet of exotic cars and private jets, who are we to say no? are you aware people actually give pastors their personal cars, money, other incentives to improve the church?

No 1, it is unethical and unreligious to accept such. I am sure if Jesus was offered luxury, he would say thank you but give it 1000 needy people instead. There are millions of needy people in Nigeria.

No 2, church tithe is not primarily for the "improvement of the elders of the church". It is for doing good deeds and running the church prudently.

No 3, improvement does not mean living affluently.

coogar:

you make this sound as if the pastor takes the ultimate decision to buy this and that - no. that is not the case.
there's a council or a board that decides what to do with the surplus. they make the decision to improve the welfare of their pastors or buy him a private jet to expand the ministry. only in community churches of 12 member congregation can a pastor make the ultimate decision to squander the money entrusted to him by his flock.

it's the same sane and non-gullible people who decide to buy the pastor what he uses. he does not make such decisions.
all those big churches have different boards and elders council who make these decisions. they have accountants, consultants, auditors, project managers etc

The pastor founded the church and has the power. The council is normally dominated by fellow conmen that he has recruited to join in milking the gullible cretins of Nigeria, like the fooooool claiming to have got 6 cars in 5 months after the "pastor took him out of the gutter".

coogar:

what makes you think they don't do this? my church has about 8 luxurious buses that go to different corners of my borough to pick people up and drop them back. my church pays the rent/mortgage of jobless folks in the church and connect them with jobs. there are rogue churches and there are living churches. don't paint all of them with the same brush is all i am asking here.

THE CHURCH DOES NOT NEED A PRIVATE LUXURY JET THAT CARRIES ONLY THE PASTOR IN LUXURY.

Even if you already have 8 buses, buy a hundred more for good deeds, not a Ferrari and a 12 acre mansion for the Pastor.

What the fck don't you understand about that?

coogar:

it's a different ball game, sagamite.
people who pay in church do so willingly - regardless of how the money is being used. what happens to the money is between God and the people keeping the money. it should not concern the giver. when you give without grudges, there's no mugu-con man

Do the people buying the fake have a gun to their heads to pay or they do so willingly?

I ASKED YOU, HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT FROM THE MYSTERY PERSON TURNING OUT TO BE YOUR SECRETARY?

coogar:

according to the scriptures they religiously believe, they go there and give without grudges. this lagos-ibadan expressway religious service has hosted state governors, ministers, commissioners, top celebrities. they are all mugus too?

What I asked is for you to prove that these churches improve people's lives.

Millions of Nigerians go to them and have been going for decades, yet life is a misery and mostly getting worse. So how did you arrive at your lame conclusion?

coogar:

people don't have savings? because i make £100 a day now means i don't have over £135,000 in savings over the years?
besides, don't people make contribution or must the private jet come from one individual - the nigerian minister?
stop this straws-clutching.

Explain to me how you got £135,000 in savings when you make £100 annually today and have been making an average of £40 annually in the first 30 years of working.

I wait.

coogar:

i doubt any nigerian minister can make as much as the big churches in nigeria.
rccg, christ embassy, winners chapel are big churches with millions of members who give on the regular to expand the ministry.
how much is a hummer if i may ask?

Yes, the pentecostal churces you listed are full of criminals like Fireman. The point I am trying to drill to you. In real churces like the Catholics and Anglicans in Nigeria, the pastors earnings can not be more than N1m a year.

The ArchBishop of Canterbury makes about £60K a year and UK ministers make about £135K a year. Yet the Archbishop is running a church with far more money than all the Nigerian pentecostal combined, talkless of Pastor Fireman alone, yet he can not afford a Hummer and has no private jet allocated to him.

In sane, non-criminal churches, pastors don't make more than government ministers.

coogar:

is fashola corrupt? was awolowo corrupt?
aren't they politicians like dimeji bankole?

should every politician from ogun state be painted with the same brush because bankole embezzled obscene amounts of money?

Who said every politician should be accused of embezzlement? Did you use yoo use your brain before asking that?

Do you see Fashola or did you see Awo living beyond their means? Do you see them like IBB, Odili, Bankole that had little before and then start hiring private jets after political office?

What did I tell you about smart assumptions?

coogar:

he doesn't need a billionaire, sagamite.
if i am attending dr fireman's church and i was in pursuit of a multi-million naira contract and the contract came through. . . via his prayers.
i am required to drop 10% of that contract. so what is a hummer in comparison to that? how much is a hummer?

You are required to drop 10% of the contract for the pastor to buy a hummer or to use for doing God's work?

coogar:

there are billionaires in nigeria and you can find them in any corner of the country.

Clarify: Billionaire in what currency?

Zimbabwean dollars?

coogar:

matthew 6:1-4

1 When you do good deeds, don't try to show off. If you do, you won't get a reward from your Father in heaven.

2 When you give to the poor, don't blow a loud horn. That's what show-offs do in the meeting places and on the street corners, because they are always looking for praise. I can assure you that they already have their reward.

3[u]When you give to the poor, don't let anyone know about it.[/u]

4[u]Then your gift will be given in secret. Your Father knows what is done in secret, and he will reward you.[/u]

do you still think all christians are mugus or the holy bible is a book of fraud?

The holy bible is a book of shyt and this definitely provides a loophole for criminal pastors. A lovely loophole.

But, fyi, in the programme, Fireman admitted somewhat he bought it himself as he was talking about yellow being his colour. He defended his right to buy one when questioned. It did not appear, under smart assumptions, that it was a gift.

coogar:

but this same modus operandi is the standard of every church in nigeria.
which means you think the whole christianity thing is a fraud, right?

Where did you see it being a standard for real churches like Catholics, Baptist, Anglican and Methodist? Despite their larger wealth, do you see any of their pastors (talkless of the global leader) with a private jet?

coogar:

not necessarily the grand-prize.
people win the crumbs(hundreds of thousand pounds) of it twice a week. go to their website and see for yourself.

euromillion isn't the only "get rich quickly" scheme we have in the world.
there are other various schemes people get into and most of the time, it's the poor folks who win.

Like which schemes? What are the odds?

The odds of winning the "crumbs" in the lotteries is still worse than you lightening striking you. So tell me, if you are a sane and intelligent that has to make an assumption:

Compare the Euromillion "crumbs" odds to the odds that a Nigerian that is living the high-life, while making peanuts, is not from a rich family and works with access to credit card details is engaged in credit card fraud.

coogar:

word of mouth - i only believe what i see on camera.
if you are not an eye witness, then you are a lie witness.
you are educated and sensible. from what you have seen in the documentary - do you think it's enough to convict pastor fireman in any court of law?

i need your yes/no.

You need a yes or no answer? For what? Are you on drugs? Who do you think you are debating with?

Lack of evidence is not proof of innocence.

Laws of legal conviction is not grounds to not be able to deduce. Otherwise the people selling drugs on the street of US are innocent and not drug dealers because there is not enough evidence to convict them.

A logical brain can tell you something even if you can not easily find the proof to prove it. Tell me, was IBB corrupt? Or because you do not have proof he was corrupt then he can't be?

coogar:

i understand that perfectly but how do you know dr fireman ticks all the huge points you have made here.
you don't know for sure if he keeps the account of the church revenue, you don't know for sure what his congregation can afford, you don't know for sure if he makes the ultimate decision on what to spend the money on. how do you then conclude he is a rogue?

You don't know for sure if Nigerian politicians are looting the money. You don't know for sure if they were not smart enough to know that the materials cost 10 time less than the price they paid. You don't know for sure the mansion they bought in Maryland was not a donation from their church. You don't know for sure if the large sums in their bank account was not just money they plan to put back in the treasury at their next political appointment. How do you conclude they are corrupt?

What did I tell you about smart assumptions

coogar:

and darren exposed them by actually going into their churches to reveal the lies, deceit and the obscene tricks these con men use to fleece their sheep. a pastor using an ear piece to reveal information of the congregation and pretended it was the holy spirit that told him is a fraud in black and white. this is what i would expect from any documentary about pastor fireman. not conjectures, past history of other rogue pastors or 4X4 matrix of sniffing a rogue pastor.

Pastor Fireman has the same modus operandi as this rogue pastors and living a life beyond his means based on it just like the rogues, not operating like the real pastors of Anglican and co.

What did I tell you about smart assumptions?

Sagamite:

The holy bible is a book of shyt and this definitely provides a loophole for criminal pastors. A lovely loophole.

case closed!

Shagamite is WRONG about the Holy Bible!

That is no EXCUSE for the likes of "coogar" to defend the indefensible neither will you half -*ssed attempt to insult anyone, call me a TOOL for JESUS and I'll be fine with that, other than that, your so called "billionaires" in every corner of Lagos can't afford my services.

This video has drawn CONDEMNATION on every forum I've seen it only for this coogar lady to be defending it, I mean we expect such from JoAgbaje but we hardly knew ye lady.


God will protect his own, we do need more BEREAN Christians to take these scammers out of business!

ogajim:

Shagamite is WRONG about the Holy Bible!

i'll let him answer you on that.

That is no EXCUSE for the likes of "coogar" to defend the indefensible neither will you half -*ssed attempt to insult anyone, call me a TOOL for JESUS and I'll be fine with that, other than that, your so called "billionaires" in every corner of Lagos can't afford my services.

i am not defending the indefensible. . . . .i am asking you people to be sure before labelling pastor fireman as a conman. i dunno fireman from adam but i am wise enough to know fireman is innocent until proven guilty. . . . . .until proven guilty.

This video has drawn CONDEMNATION on every forum I've seen it only for this coogar lady to be defending it, I mean we expect such from JoAgbaje but we hardly knew ye lady.

that the video has drawn condemnation on every nigerian forum tells me one thing:many of you are semi-illiterates with little or no ability to think for yourselves. i can bring a camera to lagos -- tell my viewers before hand you are a crook and show them your properties and beam them to the world. i can bet every nigerian forum would condemn you too. i don't have to show any proof of your fraudulent acts. 90% of the nigerian graduates are half-baked and are spoon-fed by what they see and hear without doing their own critical thinking.

God will protect his own, we do need more BEREAN Christians to take these scammers out of business!

amen!

coogar:

i am not defending the indefensible. . . . .i am asking you people to be sure before labelling pastor fireman as a conman. i dunno fireman from adam but i am wise enough to know fireman is innocent until proven guilty. . . . . .until proven guilty.

That is court of law jargons!

IBB is a criminal! I don't need any other evidence than my common sense to tell me that.

Odili is a criminal! I don't need any other evidence than my common sense to tell me that.

Ghaddafi was a murderer! I don't need any other evidence than my common sense to tell me that.

Pol Pot was a murderer! I don't need any other evidence than my common sense to tell me that.

When I go to court they will tell me to bring evidence to prove it, rightly so. That does not stop a smart person from judging and concluding they are what they are.

When I go to court, they are innocent until proven guilty. When I seat with the clerisy, they are guilty without a shadow of a doubt considering the real life pointers in front of us.

coogar:

that the video has drawn condemnation on every nigerian forum tells me one thing:many of you are semi-illiterates with little or no ability to think for yourselves. i can bring a camera to lagos -- tell my viewers before hand you are a crook and show them your properties and beam them to the world. i can bet every nigerian forum would condemn you too. i don't have to show any proof of your fraudulent acts. 90% of the nigerian graduates are half-baked and are spoon-fed by what they see and hear without doing their own critical thinking.

This criminal acts of pastors was generally a suspicion amongst those that had a brain.

That is why the BBC selected it to investigate.

The fact that it was generally suspected Catholic pastors covered up child abuses is why BBC selected to investigate it.

On such occassions, the investigations do confirm, to a rational mind, that the general suspicions were true.

Every facet of their production suggested to a rational mind that Fireman is a criminal. He had all the symptoms, characteristics and lifestyle of a crooked, fake pastor.

There are real pastors and there are fake pastors.

Real pastors tend to behave the same: Pious, selflessness and humility.

Fake pastors tend to behave the same: False/outrageous promises or claim of accomplishment, money-focused and ostentatious.

Just like good politicians and looting politicians.

You do not need to ask for Forensic accountants to show Fireman's bank account and past assets (which you can't get) or a Forensic scientist to show his dna on the money used to purchase his luxuries before you rationally conclude he is living beyond his means and off fooling people giving money to the church based on his false promises.

It just requires smart assumptions when realistic and obtainable facts are put in front of you.

Sagamite:

When I go to court they will tell me to bring evidence to prove it, rightly so. That does not stop a smart person from judging and concluding they are what they are.

When I go to court, they are innocent until proven guilty. When I seat with the clerisy, they are guilty without a shadow of a doubt considering the real life pointers in front of us.

and where is your evidence?
you don't have it - case thrown out of court. then they come after you for defamation and you will have to sell every property you own to pay for damages - which would them leave you poorer than the period you went to court and you have got no conviction.

This criminal acts of pastors was generally a suspicion amongst those that had a brain.
That is why the BBC selected it to investigate.
The fact that it was generally suspected Catholic pastors covered up child abuses is why BBC selected to investigate it.
On such occassions, the investigations do confirm, to a rational mind, that the general suspicions were true.
Every facet of their production suggested to a rational mind that Fireman is a criminal. He had all the symptoms, characteristics and lifestyle of a crooked, fake pastor.

laughable!
something you mentioned yourself won't stand in court without hard evidence?

There are real pastors and there are fake pastors.
Real pastors tend to behave the same: Pious, selflessness and humility.
Fake pastors tend to behave the same: False/outrageous promises or claim of accomplishment, money-focused and ostentatious.
Just like good politicians and looting politicians.

this is irrelevant!

You do not need to ask for Forensic accountants to show Fireman's bank account and past assets (which you can't get) or a Forensic scientist to show his dna on the money used to purchase his luxuries before you rationally conclude he is living beyond his means and off fooling people giving money to the church based on his false promises.

this megedefegede is a waste of bandwidth.
do you have any evidence to convict dr. fireman? if you do - show us.
if you don't - don't even bother.

It just requires smart assumptions when realistic and obtainable facts are put in front of you.

assumptions don't stand in court unfortunately. . . .
a fact that eludes nigerian graduates.

your argument is laughable - i told you christians are required by the holy book to make contributions and they don't have to show off with it.
you said it was wrong - i replied there are verses in the bible that requires them to do so. you asked me to prove it, and i did!

then you said the holy book is shyte! seriously, if you argue like this in public, you would be beaten up!
a book commands a group of people to act in a certain way and you call those christians mugu and that book is shyte?

only on nairaland, only on nairaland!

plaetton:

Nigeria , home to the most idiotic people in the world, is the biggest lunatic asylum in the entire universe.
I hava argued and debated this many times.
Religion is a mistake, christianity is a fraud, and pentecostal christianity is a form of mental illness.

I came across the quote below here on Nl sometime ago and I copied it for futures references for others to read.

" Religion is  an insult to human dinity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil poeple doing bad things.But for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.
Besides, the more people cling to religion, the more they believe. The more they believe, the less they know. The less they know, the more silly they are.They more silly they are, the easier they can be governed. They more easier they are to be governeed, the more they can be exploited.The more exploited they are, the poorer they get. They poorer they get, the richer and mightier the domineering class get. They richer the domineering class get, the heavier their  yolk on the neck of people(mor.ons)."

Thank you!

After all is said and done, most Nigerians are Zombies and Nigerian pastors are criminals (and that starts with Oyakhilome). And there is no difference between them and those who defend them.

^^^ That one's criminality goes beyond fraud and even extends to thuggery.

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/unreported-world/4od#3252995

Local journalist Simon Ateba says it's almost impossible to establish their true wealth. Simon takes the team to the headquarters of Christ Embassy. He claims that two years ago when he tried to take photographs of the building, security guards dragged him inside and beat him until he fainted. Soon after he tells this story, security guards drag Rhodes into the building by his belt. He escapes unscathed.

@coogar The bible is a FRAUD!

The book you refer to is nothing more than the personal scrupples; desires of some of the most mentally twisted and sadistic European rulers in history.

Furthermore, this book is a compilation of plagiarized text from ancient religions and stories from around the world; the contents and characters of which have been re-constructed, sexed-up or simply altogether made-up.

The present book is a version known as KJV this was translated from the Bishops; there were 47 translators of the KJV: Lancelot Andrews (Bishop of Winchester); John Bois (Dean of Canterbury); Miles Smith (Bishop of Gloucester); Dr. Anthony Downes (Professor of Greek studies Oxford University); Dr. Richard Bancroft e.t.c

King James was the scum of the scum; infact scum isnt enough to describe this physchopath; he was a child molester (as in he Were Intimate with little boys), a murderer and a cheat.

p/s KJV = King James Version