KunleOshob:

I don't know why you are hell bent on remaining in your ignorance and also this your perpetual penchant to misrepresent me is indeed nauseating. I never said melchizedek was not a priest what i emphasized is that Abraham gave him a tithe becos he was a King as that was the baylonian custom (Abraham was from Ur in babylonia) of that time. There was definetly noting in that passage to suggest he gave melchizedek tithes becos he was a priest. i also went to explain that as a prophet of the most high who had direct access to him, he didn't need to go thru melchizedek to make an offering to God.

@ bro Kunle, are you reading your bible at all, ?? and your statement in bold is where the lie lies. Abraham gave Tithe to melchizedek because his priest hood was called of the order of Christ. Heb 5:10. He could approach God face to face like all of us, but then recognised that melchizedek was of the order of priest hood and not becos he was king. It was a shadow of the law.

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said to him, You are my Son, to day have I begotten you.

6 As he said also in another place, You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Melchizedek as Paul is showing here was a high priest, study more as see why Abraham paid Tithe, in a dispensation of grace when there was no law and then you might understand.

Please take it easy with your words, i have no issues with you but with the false doctrines. This is the fourth and we are counting.

Quote from: KunleOshob on Today at 11:40:29 AM
To answer this question, please be reminded that Abraham came from the city of Ur in babylonia(genesis 11:31). Tithes was a common tradition amongst the babylonian people of that time and it was normally given to kings and rulers. Please note that Melchizedek whom abraham gave tithes to was the King of Salem. In short Abraham's tithe was as a result of babylonian tradition and NOT a religious injunction. To know more about "babylonian tithes" just do a googlr search on it and the facts would present themselves

KunleOshob:

Well as christians we are all priests of the most high and christ is our high priest so no big deal about being a priest  besides Abraham gave him a tithe becos he was a king and NOT becos he was a priest cos this was the babylonian tradition were Abraham was from. Abraham was a prophet of God who had direct physical acess to God, he did not need a priest as a go between.

@ coolrunner, its good to seek counsel but be careful whose advise you take. I have consistently showed you that Brother Kunle is preaching heresy and there are a lot like him to avoid, so that is why an online forum is not really the best of places to seek counsel. You dont know anythin about the people or the fruits they bear, just the words they type. For circular issues that will do not spiritual issues.

See for example his two post on Melchizedek, totally unscriptural and i will show it. Abraham didnt give hime Tithe becos he was a king of Salem, no wonder the controversy on the issue of Tithe.

@ bro Kunle you have again preached heresy. Please see Hebrew 5: 1-10 below

1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: 2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. 3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. 4 And no man takes this honor to himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said to him, You are my Son, to day have I begotten you.

6 As he said also in another place, You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears to him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Verses 5, 6 & 10 speaks for itself. Read your bible properly before coming to a public forum to preach heresy.

At this point please read your own advise below, do u search the scriptures with a teachable spirit or go in there looking for somethin


Acts 17:10-11:

Paul and Silas in Berea
10 That very night the believers sent Paul and Silas to Berea. When they arrived there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.

KunleOshob:

There is NO record of Jacob tithing in the bible, he only made a conditional promise to God that he would tithe if God protected him in his journeys. besides the concept of tithing in biblical times is totally in contrast with what obtains today

Brother Kunle na wah oh, so he made a conditional promise and didnt keep it. So which should be emulated and Why did he make the promise in the first place?? Wat was the concept of tithing in biblical times and how is it different from what obtains now.

Please be careful not to give unscriptural responses which has been your trade mark.

SegzyJoe:

@poster
It is only the TRUTH that you know that can set you free and not the one that is known by others. If you re a Christian and you don't know the truth about giving, then nobody can tell you that TRUTH here. Why don't you ask God to tell you the TRUTH. Am sure He will answer you, then you won't have to come here.

GBAM. You have said it all be careful though, the poster will call you holier than thou very soon for asking him to seek the truth by himself and not on "Nairaland".

@ dejiariyo

You provide a link to 2007 prophesies from some junk website www.naijarita.com and a former press secretary to IBB.

Since it is not you, so it is to whoever put that 2007 prophesy out there, the individual is of his father the devil, in who there is no truth. Just as the devil is a lier he is a lier. The below were the prophesies for 2007 and not that rubbish. Any reasonable man reading that so called prophesy should have asked questions.

Secondly please provide the link to the sun newspaper, well the credibility of the writer speaks for itself, a press secretary to IBB.

The credibility of the writer is in question, the prophesy is a lie, the basis of this thread is FALSE, so please can people do the honourable thing and retract their statements.

http://rccgjesuscentre.com/prophecy.htm

http://www.rccgna.org/rcnews/templates/news.asp?articleid=50&zoneid=2

PROPHECY FOR INDIVIDUAL

1. The Year will be a pleasant year for heaven seekers
2. It will not be a very pleasant year for the Lukewarm and Backsliders
3. For Heaven Seekers, there will be accelerated promotion as a result of divine Guidance and Involvement
4. Rewards for dedication and commitment to God's work will be in the form of Blessings that will exceed all human imaginations
5. For some there will be unexpected dramatic promotions both Physically and especially Spiritually
6. Some will experience a complete change in Direction and destiny
7. For some, there will be incidence of great Joy and celebrations


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PROPHECY FOR NIGERIA

1. Coming Elections will be far more peaceful than expected but serious prayers will be needed afterwards
2. Economic recovery will continue
3. This year will mark the beginning of the end for a principal enemy of this nation
4. Major Anti-Christians will suffer private and personal mishaps

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PROPHECY FOR THE WORLD

1. Intense prayers is needed to at least ameliorate major catastrophes like Floods, Earthquakes and Hurricanes
2. An Evil Organization will suffer yet another terrible blow

For RCCG
God said we should pray for Extension of Life for our elders

Quote from: KunleOshob on February 24, 2009, 02:42 PM
Christian giving as directed by christ and the apostles is purely about giving to the poor and needy around us and not enriching some so called men of God. So as christians we should give but the emphasis should be on the poor and not the church. even church offerings is meant to be distributed to the needy but your pastors won't tell you that.


Secondly on giving these were your exact words and all the notions you stated on that post are unscriptural in other words heresy.


How can Acts 4:32-35 suggest that collections were ONLY for the poor and needy. At this point i dare say REPENT.

32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was on them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made to every man according as he had need.

KunleOshob:

My statement was that the concept of rapture is grossly mis-understood by the pentecostal movement and that the word rapture does not exist in the bible. I also quoted revelations 21:3 which states that God would come down to earth to live with mankind contrary to the understanding of rapture being bandied.

Brother Kunle these were you exact words:

"The truth is that there is so much ignorance existing in the christian community today which is actively encouraged by the leaders they don't allow you to question any thing they tell you you just have to accept it whether it as sound biblical basis or not and this is very dangerous becos it leads to abuses and this is why several unscriptural things have found their way into the church and been instituitionalized over the centuries. You would be amazed how many things we hold as doctrine that you wouldn't find in scripture. Many christians eagerly await the rapture, do you know that the bible doesn't say anything about rapture and the word doesn't even exist in the bible? yet people hold it as gospel truth. (The concept of rapture emanted from a book written by a 19th century preacher.) just today i was reading the papers i came across a full page colour congratulatory message congratulating a demon (Rev king) for his birthday the message went on to shower praises, honour and glory to him as if he were god. This is the extent of brainwashing going on in our churches today. This is a man who murdered a church member in broad daylight and you still have people hero worshipping him three years down the line after he as been convicted for murder.

In my opinion christianity as it is being practised today needs to be totally overhauled, as far as i am concerned most people that profess christianity are not christlike deep down. Our churches don't even teach us or encourage true christianity and this is all due to greed and self desires of the church leadrship." Quote from Brother Kunle

You didnt say the concept of rapture was misunderstood, you said the concept emanated from a book written by a 19th century preacher, which you have been unable to provide. How does Rev 21:3 suggest anything close to the rapture.

Revelation 21 >>
American King James Version   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The concept of rapture is from the bible, the word might not be, but even the english meaning of the word rapture connotes a religious event.

coolruler:

@away4real,
First off, contrary to what you may think, I'm not taking decisions on my life from forums like this. I approached this forum seeking for knowledge on something I did not understand.
Folks have responded, and I did meticulous followup on all the responses given. The ultimate decision, I think, is mine to take.

Secondly, nowhere did I call my Pastor a devourer, I said he "told me to pray to God to deliver me from the Devourer".
I am a Christian, but I do not claim to know it all. Indeed, I must confess I've not yet discovered up to 25% of what christianity is all about. So, I constantly search and try to upgrade my knowledge on many issues, tithing and firstfruit being part of them.
If Kunle makes a lot of sense, and you call him a heretic, then I would rather settle for him than somebody who's "holy", but makes no sense. Capisce?

Am sorry i was carried away i apologise, you didnt call your pastor a devourer, my error.

Secondly see statement in bold, you have your life to live.

God bless.

KunleOshob:

Look at this clown, you don't even know the meaning of heresy! Anyway plese state one false doctrine that i have preached on this forum, if you feel offened or duped (and you are in denial) that i have been able to establish biblical that tithing as NO basis in christianity and that it is a complete fraud on christians, well that is your problem. the bible is available for us all to read and learn from and if what yout pastor or so-called god's generals preach is contrary to it then you should task them to question to state the truth or clearify there stance, if not they are marely mis-leading you and taking advantage of your ignorance.

Brother Kunle:
1. You stated that giving to the poor ALONE as the only form of NT giving.

2. You stated that there was no rapture, that it was coined by a 19th century preacher. I challenged your notion by quoting 1 Thes 4 and asked you to name the preacher.

The thread serves as evidence.

God Bless

coolruler:

@Kunle,
I feel you,
But like Mad Max, I've also been conditioned(almost from birth as it were, by my Mother), on the sanctity of tithing. Even till today, almost all her conversations with me always ends with "I hope you are paying your tithes?".
This is the very first time I'm hearing(or reading) an alternative view on tithes and I'm seriously working on changing my orientation. Its very hard I must confess( I'm even feeling guilty right now, thinking about not paying tithes.
Meanwhile, I'm looking around for a better Church, but who can tell what I will meet there?

First its so sad that it is from an online forum like this you are taking decisions on your life (christainity), from the likes of Brother Kunle that has been shown to be preaching heresy (false doctrines) twice and when confronted with the scriptures couldnt respond.

Secondly, as i noted to you almost in my first post i dont know what you are doing in a church where you consider your pastor a devourer (its left to you to decide). That is if he really is cos if your problem is giving/ tithing you might better stay home or look for some online people.

Finally have you even prayed about this at all. It is only he who seeks that finds. Matthew 7, My brother seek God for yourself and have your own personal convictions/revealations then only then would you not be moved by every wind of doctrine. Imagine today if your Pastor, and God forbid it Adeboye, Oyedapo, Benny Hinn name them all God's general you know, if they come out of a meeting today and say they are sorry they have been deceiving people that there is no God. Would you stand

Spend time in Gods presence, study the word and initially it might seem nothing is happening but stay on it, you might feel after a month am not hearing anything, nothing is happening, stay on it. It is he that seeketh that findeth. Keep reading the chapters day after day, i can suggest that you start with the New Testament, no pressure, keep reading but the key is be consistent if you miss a day dont fret, make sure you continue. In due time you will find answers then only then will you be able to STAND.

KunleOshob:

Answer is obvious they were not required to tithe since they did not produce from the land.

Interesting, so it was not only the levites that weren't expected to tithe under the law. Really interesting.

And you didnt repond to my response to your unscriptural notion on rapture.

Ovamboland:

Benetictac, have come across this command from God? Deut 14 23-24

23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25[b] then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose[/b]

The highlight shows silver was a means of exchange widely available as the time this tithing law was given.
Have thought that there were also carpentars, garment makers, blacksmith, scribes, tax collectors, professional soldiers etc. in Israel, who get paid in silver, how did the say they should pay tithes?

Is this what the Holy Spiriyt revealed to you as regard the quoted verse? am afraid i heard very differently, tithing is not the subject of that verse, neither is it justice, mercy and others. Jesus was only highligthing the behaviour of the Pharisees, their hypocrisy, and exalting mundane things for main crux of God's commandment.

My question remains what was the direct reward of labour at the time?? Was the economy subsistence or not?? 

I totally agree with you there would have been carpenters, garment makers etc then you answer the question so how were they supposed to tithe the OT way? Please tell us how were they supposed to tithe?? since you claim the tithe was only agricultural products.??

My premise as i stated earlier is that the notion that OT tithe were only agricultural products is a lie, you have showed were God told them to convert it to silver (a commodity), so in other words silver could be used as tithe. And again note the situation the people who had reaped their products but were far off, so they had reaped agricultural products were far off but could still tithe silver,

Dont mix up the issue, was the tither suppose to give only agricultural products, cows etc or could they tithe silver and gold?? If they could then what is the issue tithing money today.

Halleluyah, revealation according to Ovamboland, tithing will not be the subject or near it to you though they were the exact words of Jesus, becos my brother as a man thinketh in his heart,

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former

The same issue we saw earlier someone saying Paul meant something else when the scripture is clear, please interpret without neglecting the former in plain simple english.

Eg i say to you why are you not reading chemistry, you are studying only Physics dont you know you should not neglect the former. But the strategic aim or broader message is be a studious student, read your books, perhaps you might have maths and Englis also but in this situation i am saying do not neglect Chemistry,

Ovamboland:

Thank you Benedictac,
The quote is mattew 23:23
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former

Can you expalin in plain english what the Holy Spirit is telling or has told you about this verse if you have read it before now?

I had wanted to stay away from this topic but it seems a lie is beginning to hold sway here.

As i stated earlier if you choose not to tithe by faith God bless you tithing has nothing to do with your salvation.

First on the notion that the tithes were food, animals and agricultural proceeds ONLY, how can we be so ignorant. This has to do with the way labour was rewarded at the "time". The economic system would mainly have been trade by barter so it was exchange goods for goods pls note the word mainly, money was gradually evolving. The more goods you had, it could be deduced that the more blessed that man is. In other words the means of exchange/reward was in raw commodities such as agricultural proceeds. So when we read through the old testament we always see that when God blesses a man he increases in Cows, sheeps, tents etc. In other words he increases in commodities,

From Abraham first tithe to Melchizedek it was (spoils of war), maybe Gold, Horses, swords etc i dont have the exact details as i am not quoting from Genesis but i know it was from the spoils he tithed.  Then through the law to the levites it was a tenth of thier increase, which basically was from the works of their hands, God had given the children of Isreal a fertile land so they were maybe farmers by occupation, others might have been cattle rearers.

The question now is how is Labour rewarded?

Secondly someone mentioned that Tithes were paid to the Levites as they were the priest and did nothing so something about the Pastors bla bla,  How can you be so far from the truth, who ever imagines Tithes were paid to the Pastor is being deceived. No Tithe is paid to any Pastor. In actual terms the Pastor should tither he is merely the Bishop/Deacon (using NT words) coordinating and encouraging the brethren he also should Tithe.

He has made us Priest and Kings unto him, and have one High Priest, it is him the tithes are paid to, recall Abraham paying Tithe to Melchizedek and study on what Hebrew says about Melchizedek. We are not under the Law and do not Tithe to fulfil the requirements of the Law.

Finally on the verse below, please see the statements in bold,

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Though this could still be considered the dispensation of the law as Jesus hadnt ascended yet, but he still noted "without neglecting the former". May God give us grace to understand.

"The truth is that there is so much ignorance existing in the christian community today which is actively encouraged by the leaders they don't allow you to question any thing they tell you you just have to accept it whether it as sound biblical basis or not and this is very dangerous becos it leads to abuses and this is why several unscriptural things have found their way into the church and been instituitionalized over the centuries. You would be amazed how many things we hold as doctrine that you wouldn't find in scripture. Many christians eagerly await the rapture, do you know that the bible doesn't say anything about rapture and the word doesn't even exist in the bible? yet people hold it as gospel truth. (The concept of rapture emanted from a book written by a 19th century preacher.) just today i was reading the papers i came across a full page colour congratulatory message congratulating a demon (Rev king) for his birthday the message went on to shower praises, honour and glory to him as if he were god. This is the extent of brainwashing going on in our churches today. This is a man who murdered a church member in broad daylight and you still have people hero worshipping him three years down the line after he as been convicted for murder.

In my opinion christianity as it is being practised today needs to be totally overhauled, as far as i am concerned most people that profess christianity are not christlike deep down. Our churches don't even teach us or encourage true christianity and this is all due to greed and self desires of the church leadrship." Quote from Brother Kunle

@ brother Kunle, again another very unscriptural notion. First it was giving to the poor as the ONLY NT giving, now rapture.

The word "Rapture" what does it mean in English Language i.e. dictionary meaning.

1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy.
2. An expression of ecstatic feeling. Often used in the plural.
3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven.

My question is please enlighten us on the 19th century preacher that developed the concept of rapture.

As you show us the preacher look at: Verse 17 of particular importance. But please in your response make sure you state the particular preacher and not just a 19th century preacher.

13But we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve like other people who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so through Jesus God will bring those who have died with him. 15For we declare to you what the Lord has told us to say:[c] We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have died. 16With a shout of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of God's trumpet, the Lord himself will come down from heaven, and the dead who belong to the Messiah will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18So then, encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 - 18

Here Paul was teaching on why christains shouldnt be ignorant about death, or worry, from verse 1 it is a bit clearer, please take out time to read the whole chapter. The verse you quoted in Revealation again does not refer to the rapture, there is a sequence of events that the bible clearly teaches us the end will follow.

@ SirJohn, God bless, thanks for clarifying , your "faith" has made you whole, lol, 

davidylan:

1. We have to note that "versions" are not necessarily accurate. For example RSVP removes the phrase "virgin" (in reference to the birth of Christ) and replaces it with the term "young woman". Both are not the same even though it may seem subtle.

2. When Paul says 17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. . . i doubt he is saying "give me more so that you can have more harvest", he is simply saying such selfless sacrifice from them is not going to go unrewarded.

@ David, i dare say that you have interpreted this scripture according to your feeling, zeal and emotions.

We have looked at 4 versions, King James, New King James, Ampliefied and American Standard Version and you insinuate it is a translation problem, my brother it is NOT. Please get a concordance or any version show us just one that interprets it the way you have, then we will look at it.

Quoting an exception from the Revised Standard is so out of place, so please tell how did you know mary was a virgin is it from another version or not.

KunleOshob:

For your information sir i have nothing against giving to support the teachers of the word. it is the greedy way some preachers manipulate their congregation thru twisting of the scripture that i detest. The un diluted truth must be told in the house of God.

Maybe some preachers are a bit zealous but hey no one of us heard the sermon from coolruler's Pators, so it is unfair to conclude and tag him "some greedy preacher". There will be false teachers not called of God out there but unless we have first hand information we need to be careful the way we are quick to demonise Pastors, in my opinion that is so wrong and unscriptural we need to stop it.

And brother Kunle, the scriptures you quoted haS nothing to do with this situation, the pastor did not ask coolruler to give him money personally and as someone has noted which Pastor has asked anyone to give him money by force, let them state it. If not please let this nonsense stop.

I choose to believe that most Pastors are decent men, carrying out what God has called them to do, so please if you claim you are a christain and that christ died for you, please lets stop this nonsense.

We can discuss doctrines comparing scripture with scripture but let every man be fully persuaded in his spirit, he is God to us all. To him that chooses not to pay his Tithe in faith God bless you, to him that chooses by faith to pay his Tithe and give a First fruit offetory God bless you also. As long as it is done in Faith. I only wonder the faith needed not to pay thithe, hmm, thats a new one Faith not to pay thithe.

davidylan:

I got the point you were passing across, i was only making a point so others dont carry Phil 4 and run away with the idea that Paul was asking for money and gifts. He wasnt.

A closer look at the portion i highlighted - i think what Paul was trying to say there was "i dont really need the gifts . . . i have all and abound, but i am happy you made this sacrifice because it is to your own spiritual benefit". No where else do we see Paul or any of the other apostles mandating the christians to give to them.

As per your statement lets look at a few other versions:

Amplified
Not that I seek or am eager for [your] gift, but I do seek and am eager for the fruit which increases to your credit [the harvest of blessing that is accumulating to your account].

American Standard Version
17 Not that I seek for the gift; but I seek for the fruit that increaseth to your account


Paul was not trying to say "i dont really need the gifts . . . i have all and abound, but i am happy you made this sacrifice because it is to your own spiritual benefit.

He said according to the Amplified "but I do seek and am eager for the fruit which increases to your credit the harvest of blessing that is accumulating to your account". He was eager for the fruit which increases to their credit, he was eager for their fruit, he was eager for them to give because of the harvest of blessing.

He did not need their gifts that has been established, but he was eager for the them to get a harvest.

@ poster, i am really shocked at us christains atimes, my question is why are you in your church in the first place if you feel your Pastor is leading you astray in other words you feel he is greedy and after your money hence he has preached heresy, leave the church.

From what you have typed, i enjoin you by the mercies of God Please and Please keep your tithes, first fruit or whatever you want to give.

davidylan:

But away4real you missed the key point - Now you Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but you only. 16 For even in Thessalonica you sent once and again to my necessity. 17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. 18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odor of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God. 19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus

the men of Philipi were sending Paul gifts NOT BECAUSE HE SPECIFICALLY REQUESTED IT OR ENCOURAGED THEM TO but because they desired to give to him as a labour of their love and appreciation. Phil 4:17-18 is simply Paul saying thank you and letting them know that there is a reward for giving to those who minister the gospel.

Now compare that to modern day christianity - giving is now solely almost by force. It is no longer a voluntary sacrifice, it is now mandatory that you PAY tithe so the pastor can live large. Paul says - "But I have all, and abound: I am full", how many of your pastors come to the stage and say - "i have 2 mansions, a private jet and 10 luxury cars . . . i am full"?

@ David, lets take a step at a time, lets be slow to speak. What i stated clearly is that the poor and needy alone giving is not scriptural and not comparing to modern day christainity. By all means we are to give to the poor and needy but thats not the only giving.  Please note i didnt say Paul requested it and for clarification, In my opinion the key point as you have noted is that there is a reward,"an odor of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God" pleasing to God. So if i give to a minister of the Gospel there is a reward. Geez for me i stop there, the investigation thingy i will leave to David.

But looking at it closely Paul said "but I desire fruit that may abound to your account", this tells us that Paul wanted them to give, he desired "fruits that may abound to their accounts" ie he desired them to give so they get blessed not because he needed it.

Now to what you mean by modern day christainity is really subjective except you are an ancient christain , lol, just kidding but i wasnt going into that i just wanted to correct that unscriptural doctrine.

KunleOshob:

Christian giving as directed by christ and the apostles is purely about giving to the poor and needy around us and not enriching some so called men of God. So as christians we should give but the emphasis should be on the poor and not the church. even church offerings is meant to be distributed to the needy but your pastors won't tell you that.

Brother Kunle, please that is so not true. Even the very popular Philipians 4:19 shows that is not true, except you are calling Paul "poor and needy".

Now you Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but you only. 16 For even in Thessalonica you sent once and again to my necessity. 17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. 18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odor of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God. 19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus

Please see statements in bold, the Phillipian church sent once and again, in order words they sent 2 gift offetorys to Paul, not because he desired a gift, but that the fruit may abound to their accounts. See verse 18, Paul stated the gifts sent as "an odor of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God".

Clearly your statement is unscriptural, i dont understand what you mean by emphasis to the poor and needy, pls elaborate.

From Obama's child hood to almost every day in his life has been put under the micro scope and u say u dont know anytin about him, so how did u know he was a community organiser, has been in state legislature, lecturer and attended church for 20 years your first paragraph is awash with so much falsity keep at it.

What does ACORN have to do wit this try as much as u can Obama is not linked to ACORN, d activities of a few ACORN staff can not soil an organisation that has achieved a lot. Republicans and democrats alike atest to this, so again keep at it.

Yes we definately agree that the election is close, the accuracy of pollings is suspect and definately the margin of error are at times understated to achieve some statistical significant result so it merely gives an indication that can be skewed depending on the sample surveyed.

How is Obama a better choice he is more inclusive in his approach. Both economic philosophies have thier advantages and disadvantages, the random variables such as political climate and market perception could tilt any to success. What is needed now is enormous purchasing power and consumer confidence, thats why reducing the tax for the middle class is key in achieving this. This talk of the rich creating jobs is so shallow is it only the rich that buy the goods?

Obama broke no tax promise u dont listen to him so how would u know, let me explain it to u, no one earning 250K or below would see their tax increase, go to his website there is a tax calculator there, then from 200k downwards get a tax cut, then 250k upwards get a tax increase propotionately (in proportion to income).

NB: even his own tax increases so i dont know what ur puttin 2 and 2 is? does he hate himself and the rich so much?

Tayo-D:

away4real,
I never said that!
Everyone gets a tax cut and not just the wealthy. If I may ask you, how many times have you being employed by the poor? It is the rich who create jobs and giving them as much tax breaks as the others is only sensible. Capital gains tax affects everyone. Tell me, was Clinton able to raise more money for the govt from a higher capital gains tax compared to President Bush?
This is the same aunt he mentioned in his autobiaography. He is well aware of the state of his aunt and cannot even bail her out of her misery. Why should I think this person cares a hoot about me if he doesn't give a sh*t about his flesh and blood? He has twice said that America's biggest failing so far is that we are no longer our brother's keepers. Going by Obama's words then, I dare say he represents American's failings in its fullest expresion.
What idepology if I may ask? We are only judging Obama by his ideology here. It is obvios you are the one blinded by undying love for someone who does not live out his words. If he has failed to live up to his professed ideals in his family, why should I trust him to uphold it to the nation?

Your statement above refers, and pls read my post again i said larger share of tax cuts in proportion to their income.

Ok Obama's aunt is illegal what should he do subvert the process to help her, if he had defended her in d case u would say he is defending an asylum seeker that makes him extreme or anythin . How can you conclude he doesnt give a hoot about his aunty or family such unfairness from a professed christain is alarming u might disagree wit d guy on issues but be fair for christs sake, he left his campaign for 2 days to go see an ailing grand mother, took his daughter out for hallowen becos he cares and not a political stunt.

What other family ideals do you need, how many of your family members have u taken to the US, how many of your extended family members do u send money to? U dont have to answer becos they are symbolic questions the point as someone has stated above is our web of family links are quite large depending on the family u are from,even McCain has said he is a good family man so i dont get u.

U dont have to like Obama but dont smear him unfairly , i wont smear Palin or McCain on trivial issues i totally disagree with their positions but i recognise the service of McCain and cant stand the stupity of Palin,doesnt suggest they are bad people so all dis indirect insinuations on Obama is just pathetic.

Tayo-D:

@topic,

Talking about polls. I will enjoin everyone not to put too much hope in these polls going into the election. Why you may ask? Among other reasons, how do you account for up to 80% refuse-to-respond reply to the pollsters' questions? The polls we are do not account for this. Assuming these people who refuse to respond are Obama's, then the race will be a landslide victory for him. If on the other hand they are McCain's you can be sure Obama stands no chance.

Considering that Obama is the "hip" choice and these folks go against the grain to not respond at all, then I will tell you Obama is in very big trouble.

Early voting which is traditionally the strength of the Democrats hasn't showed any Obama edge so far. Florida, arguably the most liberal State in the Union that was supposed to be in the bag for Obama is now very competitive and Obama is still throwing money there like no man's business. Reason for this is not far-fetched. A ballot initiative banning gay marriage is in the offing. You can imagine how this is energizing the traditional conservative base to go out and vote. This does not bode well for Obama, considering the fact that polls indicate the ban will be upheld. If same people who uphold the ban vote traditionally, then bye-bye to Florida for Obama.

In short, I can not put my money on this election. It is way too complicated to predict.

How is Obama the hip choice, please state that as your opinion, in my opinion McCain is the erratic choice.

Early voting isnt the strength of the democrats it is the strength of any well organised ground campaign that can get out their votes early, George Bush had a very effective ground campaign and was quite successful in early voting.

Theres no need to paint any glim picture for Obama we all agree the race will be very tight, isnt it ironic that a new guy can stretch the GOP machinery like this, win or loose the GOP wont forget this in a hurry. And don't be mistaken the odds are in Obama's favour but thats no need to be complacent we know the artistry of the GOP to turn illegalilty into legality during elections.

The race is close, it is fool hardy to look at the polls, its the ground work that counts now, taking McCains line i wish McCain well but wish Obama all the luck, its clear to all that will use common sense that he is the better choice, this Liberal/conservative talk is all a way to divide and confuse the intellectually lazy and confused. The difference  between Obama and McCain is audible to the blind and visible to the deaf, Palin as VP, McCain as president in 2k8 am amazed at the republican party.

Tayo-D:

@topic,

This is the same Obama who tlod us in the infomercial that we are to be our brother's keeper. Not only does he not take care of his aunty, but we learnt his half-brother in Kenya who is living on about $1 per day. Talk about hypocrisy.

This is one reason why I feel sorry for the many in the US who think electing Obama will bring an end to their misery. the guy does not care jack for anyone but himself. Every attempt at public service as being with a view to the Presidency.

And by the way, I've being convinced long ago that while Liberals are ready to ready to tax everyone and use public money to become "Mr Nice Guy", they cannot and do not do the same with their money. What a joke!!!

So is it electing John McCain that will bring the end to their misery?

And it is giving a larger share of tax cuts to fortune 500 CEO's and larger dividentd income and capital gains tax cuts then have a large deficit while fighting two wars that is strong economics.

On the topic his aunty lives in the US illegaly and he said he didnt know or he didnt do anytin about it how does that make him an hypocrite?. I am loss on what to say, throwing common sense to the wind in the name of ideology.

There were those in here particulary TayoD advocating that ACORN had commited fraud just becos of the actions of a few.

In the year that the republicans feel threathened they have gone to as many courts as possible to try to disenfrenchise people, understanding that the system was skewed to their kind of voters. The supreme court has consistently ruled against them but they wont give up, now its to cities where they are in power they are trying to cause confusion.

I had always known them to be smart and painting a picture that doesnt exist. Please read the report below and make up your minds.


Some voters 'purged' from voter rolls

ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- College senior Kyla Berry was looking forward to voting in her first presidential election, even carrying her voter registration card in her wallet.

"Vote suppression is real. It does sometimes happen," said Daniel P. Tokaji, a law professor at Ohio State University.

But about two weeks ago, Berry got disturbing news from local election officials.

"This office has received notification from the state of Georgia indicating that you are not a citizen of the United States and therefore, not eligible to vote," a letter from the Fulton County Department of Registration and Elections said.

But Berry is a U.S. citizen, born in Boston, Massachusetts. She has a passport and a birth certificate to prove it. Watch some of the concerns of voting experts »

The letter, which was dated October 2, gave her a week from the time it was dated to prove her citizenship. There was a problem, though -- the letter was postmarked October 9.

"It was the most bizarre thing. I immediately called my mother and asked her to send me my birth certificate, and then I was like, 'It's too late, apparently,' " Berry said.

Berry is one of more than 50,000 registered Georgia voters who have been "flagged" because of a computer mismatch in their personal identification information. At least 4,500 of those people are having their citizenship questioned and the burden is on them to prove eligibility to vote.

Experts say lists of people with mismatches are often systematically cut, or "purged," from voter rolls.

It's a scenario that's being repeated all across the country, with cases like Berry's raising fears of potential vote suppression in crucial swing states.

"What most people don't know is that every year, elections officials strike millions of names from the voter rolls using processes that are secret, prone to error and vulnerable to manipulation," said Wendy Weiser, an elections expert with New York University's Brennan Center for Justice.

"That means that lots and lots of eligible voters could get knocked off the voter rolls without any notice and, in many cases, without any opportunity to correct it before Election Day."

Weiser acknowledged that "purging done well and with proper accountability" is necessary to remove people who have died or moved out of state.

"But the problem is it's not necessary to do inaccurate purges that catch up thousands of eligible voters without any notice or any opportunity to fix it before Election Day and really without any public scrutiny at all," she said.

Such allegations have flared up across the United States during this election cycle, most notably in Ohio, where a recent lawsuit has already gone to the U.S. Supreme Court.

There, the state Republican Party sued Ohio's Democratic secretary of state in an effort to make her generate a list of people who had mismatched information. But Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner said generating such a list would create numerous problems too close to the election and possibly disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of voters.

The Supreme Court last week ruled against the GOP on appeal of a lower court order directing Brunner to prepare the list.

In Florida, election officials found that 75 percent of about 20,000 voter registration applications from a three-week period in September were mismatched due to typographical and administrative errors. Florida's Republican secretary of state ordered the computer match system implemented in early September.

In Wisconsin, Republican Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen sued the state's election board after it voted against a proposal to implement a "no-match" policy. The board conducted an audit of its voter rolls and found a 22 percent match failure rate -- including for four of the six members of the board.

The Brennan Center has also documented cases across the country of possible illegal purging, impediments to college student voting and difficulties accessing voter registration.

A lawsuit has been filed over Georgia's mismatch system, and the state is also under fire for requesting Social Security records for verification checks on about 2 million voters -- more requests than any other state.

One of the lawyers involved in the lawsuit says Georgia is violating a federal law that prohibits widespread voter purges within 90 days of the election, arguing that the letters were sent out too close to the election date.

"They are systematically using these lists and matching them and using those matches to send these letters out to voters," said McDonald, director of the ACLU Voting Rights Project in Georgia.

"It's not, you know, an individualized notion of people maybe not being citizens or not being residents. They're using a systematic purging procedure that's expressly prohibited by federal laws."

Asked if he believed that eligible voters were purged in Georgia, McDonald said, "If people who are properly eligible, are getting improperly challenged and purged, the answer would be 'Yes,' " he said.

Elise Shore, regional counsel for the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund, said letters like those sent to Berry appear to violate two federal laws against voter purging within 90 days of the election.

"People are being targeted, and people are being told they are non-citizens, including both naturalized citizens and U.S.-born citizens," said Shore, another plaintiff in the Georgia lawsuit. "They're being told they're not eligible to vote, based on information in a database that hasn't been checked and approved by the Department of Justice, and that we know has flaws in it."

Georgia's Secretary of State Karen Handel, a Republican who began working on purging voter rolls since she was elected in 2006, said that won't happen. If there are errors, she said, there is still plenty of time to resolve the problems. iReport.com: Are you voting early?

Handel says she is not worried the verification process will prevent eligible voters from casting a ballot.

"In this state and all states, there's a process to ensure that a voter who comes in -- even if there's a question about their status -- that they will vote either provisional or challenge ballot, which is a paper ballot," she said.

"So then the voter has ample opportunity to clarify any issues or address them," Handel added. "And I think that's a really important process."

Handel denied the efforts to verify the vote are suppression.

"This is about ensuring the integrity of our elections," she said. "It is imperative to have checks and balances on the front end, during the processes and on the back end. That's what the verification process is about."

So someone like Kyla Berry will be allowed to cast a provisional ballot when she votes, but it's up to county election officials whether those ballots would actually count.

Berry says she will try to vote, but she's not confident it will count.

"I know this happens, but I cannot believe it's happening to me," she said. "If I weren't allowed to vote, I would just feel like that would be , like the worst thing ever -- a travesty."

dayokanu:

Colin Powell endorses Barack Obama for president


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081020/ap_on_el_pr/powell

I would be more comfortable with a Henry Kissinger James A. Baker III, Lawrence Eagleburger or Alexander Haig endorsement.

This might spark some racial sentiments among whites that most notable black guys are endorsing Barack Obama so its a race thing.

@ dayo that statement you made is a bit musguided. Why because Henry Kessinger is more of a secretary of state or what? Perhaps Colin Powel was not chairman Joint chief of staff or he wasnt a secretary of state. Colin in my opinion brings in more becos he was Chairman Joint chief of staff, a General and one of the most accomplished soldiers in America. Henry Kessesinger on the other hand doesnt possess that broad experience.

I am more comfortable with a man that looks at a friend of more than 25 years in the face and tells him he is towing the wrong line (becos he supports divisive tactics, using fear and smear suggesting another is palin around with terrorist) than a man that says something on CNN then when he is quoted takes a 360 degree turn around in order to help a friend, my respect for Henry Kessinger took a nose dive, the man didnt show strong character at dat time.

I am so so tired tired of the insinuation that becos am black or anyone black is supporting Obama just becos he is black alone. It is insulting to my intelligence to suggest i will support anything black for the sake of supporting sake. Barack Obama is intelligent amongst other things, Colin Powell couldnt be more accurate when he says he displays intellectual curiosity, that is the basic difference McCain gives the image of one that acts without thinking one that is unstable, Palin i dont want to go there.

Colin Powell articulated his reasons so clearly that even Sarah Palin will understand it easily. And even the insinuation that Colin Powel is endorsing Obama becos he is black is insulting to the man.

Please i urge you all to read the reasons Colin Powell gave for supporting Barack Obama, again another positive association that Obama can draw on, we can at least suggest he will be palling around with Colin Powell, unlike those that feel its only radical associations Obama has.

I find it hard if not unimaginable the smears, diversion and all sorts of nonsense out there. Even some intelligent people have been unable to distinguish the issues, it is indeed sad and disapointing.

Please what are your views on this endorsement, do you think it will help Obama's candidacy or not? I think it would, it matters and is important that even a republican thinks Obama will make a better president. Whats the next line of argument so we can go ahead and discredit it. This is a major plus, the game is not yet over but the signs are looking good.

[flash=425,344]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD3E-m01Q34&hl=en&fs=1[/flash]

Retired General Colin L. Powell, one of the country's most respected Republicans, stunned both parties on Sunday by strongly endorsing Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) for president on NBC's "Meet the Press" and laying out a blistering, detailed critique of the modern GOP.

"I think he is a transformational figure," Powell said. "He is a new generation coming ,  onto the world stage and on the American stage. And for that reason, I'll be voting for Senator Barack Obama."

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/19/colin.powell/index.html

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14714.html

Tayo-D:

@bawomolo,
That is not ture. It is the other way round. Obama has donated about $800,000 from his campaign to ACORN.

Again as in the case of Ayers, Obama is economical with the truth in his first public response about his ties to the group. Information coming our reveals that not only did he provide them with legal representation, he trained some of their leaders. For any who do not know, the CO in ACORN stands for COmmunity Organizers. Does that ring any bell? Anyway, here's an article regarding Obama's association with ACORN and his attempt to hide it - http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/7203

This is just pathetic, i wont bother to respond to this. Its just the height.

Please read adcoline response below and respond, i don't subscribe to guilt by association for anyone including McCain and Palin so i really don't agree with him, but he is just replaying your obviously discredited and lame logic that doesnt pass the common sense test. Theres just so much rubbish out there to distract people off issues, i cant believe any one with an iota of intelligence will go this line. Politics reveals a lot about our personality and our we view issues, its sad a lot cant seperate issues. Imagind banning inter racial dating, where did they get that from? lol, i will hear all sorts.

Tayo D.
What was McCain's association with Accorn when he addressed them in 2006? Why are you not talking about Sarah Palin hosting a secessionist organisation in Governor's mansion in which her  husband is a card carrying member? Why are we not talking about John McCain's association  with folks who lobby and dine with Burmese dictators. Why are we not talking about John McCain's association with Iran Contra. Why are we not talking about Keating 5? Why are we not talking about folks like Bushes who had business dealings with Saudi families? How about John McCain's association with a pastor who constantly taunts Jews and minorities. How about John McCain voting against MLK's holiday and equal pay for all genders.  Since its guilty by association, Obama should not be extricated from his relationship with Ayers only if  John McCain's previous relationships are taken into account.
How about McCain's relationship with Bush who went to address Bob Jones University that  bans inter racial dating? How about Ralph Reed , an intern for Jack Abramoff, a convicted lobbyist,  who is now raising money for John McCain.

Let's put 20 years of going to church in perspective. Most church services last for less than 2 hours, but we are going to use 4 hours.
In a year Obama spent 4 hours by 52 weeks (if he attended church service every Sunday; possible or impossicant?
4hrs by 52 weeks = 208hrs in a year. This is equal to 8.6days when you divide by 24hrs
so 8.6days by 20 years= 173.3 days divide by 30 days ( a month) =5.7months

Obama is 46 years, so 46yrs by 12months = 552months.So to give you a sense of what percentage of his life that was spent in that church
5.7/552 X100% =1.0326%. so 99% of his life is very intact  if he went to church to seek for  a "spiritual mentor". Never mind the fact that  most of us who go to church have never challenged our assimilated religious teachings let alone pastors. His tutelage days at Columbia and Harvard cannot be compared with the "time" he spent in his former church yet, we choose to ignore these glaring facts and define him as a radical even though he has never preached from the pulpit .
We really need to test some our so called claims not that everybody is saying the same thing.

@ plus_queen, this is a glimpse of what is going on now i only just pray am still a bit skeptical that this thin might tilt, and its very painful a lot of people are easily deceived. Imagine the comparison.

Its obvious all those saying Obama's plans are not good havent even listened to the man. Tayo & Co for wanting to be different or disagree (opposition for opposition sake) on the ground of so called moral issues have written Obama totally off. They havent removed the party affiliations and listen to the man objectively. No one agrees with Obama 100%, but at least let them listen to the guy and give him a chance.

Did u see the shock in McCain eyes when Obama said zero penalty for small business.

Again on the tax issue which a lot of peole i know are a not happy especially the few rich ones, they are not looking at the technicalities and how this can be avoided, the so called Joe the plumber will actually get a tax cut under Obama, but this republicans just scatter the issues gbam gbam every where "the more u look d less u c" that only the informed can see through the smoke.

plus_Queen:

3 questions.
Was Ayers ever indicted?
was he convicted?
how many years did he serve ?

God bless you plus_Queen.