Krayola2:

@ debosky and noetic2

What do u think of geology and cultural anthropology or paleontology? as in, are they honest professions or do they just make stuff up?

Do u think all the evidence e.g fossils that they find are just made up?

I don't think anyone makes stuff up - any scientific analysis is based on a system of beliefs/standards. Fossils are often dated by virtue of the rocks found around them, and the dating of those rocks is based on either the atmospheric concentration of certain compounds or on the rate of decay of certain elements within them. If their theories regarding any of these decays are wrong, then the dating process is wrong.

Fossils without a doubt exist, I have personally found many myself and seen geological history in front of me. What I do not accept is when they pose deduced evidence as absolute evidence. Even in these fields there are 'non-mainstream' opinions that do not agree with many of their dating mechanisms.

debosky:

I don't think anyone makes stuff up - any scientific analysis is based on a system of beliefs/standards. Fossils are often dated by virtue of the rocks found around them, and the dating of those rocks is based on either the atmospheric concentration of certain compounds or on the rate of decay of certain elements within them. If their theories regarding any of these decays are wrong, then the dating process is wrong.

Fossils without a doubt exist, I have personally found many myself and seen geological history in front of me. What[b] I do not accept is when they pose deduced evidence as absolute evidence[/b]. Even in these fields there are 'non-mainstream' opinions that do not agree with many of their dating mechanisms.

I don't think they claim it is absolute evidence of anything. But it is evidence that supports a lot of other evidence, which all combined together makes it highly likely that it points at our history. Even if the dating process might be questionable, the presence of evidence, and how it supports what we think, logically, should have happened for apes or ape-like creatures to have evolved into humans makes it imo, more credible that the account in Genesis 1 read literally.

krayola just gravitates from place to place. No purpose.

And do you have either.

haha. davidylan. . .na so my nuts sweet reach? u just cant get off them.

Tudór:

I take it you've never heared of LIGERS (lion and tiger offspring) or a horse and zebra mating to produce an offspring or wolf-dog. . .

Ligers, a hybrid of Lions and tigers.  This is only possible because they belong to the same kind or family, the cat kind, and this can only be done while the animals are in captivity since they are naturally at enmity which each other.  The dog kind are different from the cat kind etc.  Each creature "brings forth after its own kind."

If you are interested in know more about the different "kinds" that God created, check the link below for clarification.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v3/n1/zonkeys-ligers-wholphins

debosky:

How does the bible tell us that nothing evolved? What it says is that everything was created by God who spoke them into existence. Does it tell us in what exact manner/process the creatures came about?

The Bible is clear on the exact manner/process the creatures came about which I will be explaining later as time permits.

debosky:

The bible says each creature brings forth after it's own kind - what is this 'kind' exactly? Was it defined as species, genus, phylum or any of the current biological classifications in use? How can you simply jump to comparing dogs and cats as proof of anything?

I suggest that you check on the link given to Tudor below to find out the answer to your question.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v3/n1/zonkeys-ligers-wholphins

debosky:

How do you know dogs and cats have no common ancestry?

This question betrays your bias towards biological evolution. The fact that the company that manufactures Jaguar cars and concorde planes does not mean that concorde evolved from the Jaguar car, it only means that they share the same manufacturer. The same goes for cats and dogs they share the same Creator and not the same ancestor.

The purpose of this thread is that the Bible stands despite all the attacks from skeptics, cultists and those of the other religion.  The Bible has answers to all your questions.

Does the Bible give us a rock solid foundation to stand on?

[list]
[li]Does the Bible tell us about Who created?  Yes it does.  All through the Bible we see that God is the creator.[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]Does the Bible tell us What was created?  The answer is yes.  It says that God created all things.[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]Does the Bible tell us how it was created?  If you guys only read the Bible without your evolutionary spectacles, then you will find out how God created.  In Genesis 1 it says and "God said" at least 9 times.  He spoke it supernaturally into existence by His great Power.  Psalm.33:6-9; Heb.11:3.  You can see (without those goggles of yours) that the Bible clearly tells us how God created, and it is not open to anyones personal opinion. [/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]Does the Bible tell us when God created?  Yes it does.  And nobody disagrees (except you are an evolutionist and atheist).  Everybody agrees and its called "In the Beginning"[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]Does the Bible tell us how long it took God to create?  The Bible is also very explicit on this; it says 6 days.[/li]
[/list]

Which is supported by top Hebrew scholars called lexigraphers.  The most widely recognised Hebrew lexicons and dictionaries published in the 20th century says that the creation days written in Genesis are equal to literal six days.

Many scientist also believe that 6 days, 6,000 years ago.

Below is a partial list of scientists and highly qualified Hebrew scholars who believe in the Bible's account of creation as is recorded in the Bible and through their professional fields have come to the scientific conclusion that confirms the Bible's account:

Danny Faulkner         Ph.D.  Astronomy
John Byl                     Ph.D.  Astronomy
Tom Greene               Ph.D.  Astronomy
James Dire                 Ph.D.  Astrophysics
Dave Harrison            Ph.D. Astrophysics
Steven Boyd               Ph.D. Hebraic and Cognitive Studies
Floyd Nolen Jones     Th.D., Ph.D.  Author of Chronology of the Old Testament
Herb Hirt                    Ph.D.  Biblical Exposition
Robert Cole                Ph.D.  Semitic languages
Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon
Georgia Purdon          Ph.D. Molecular Genetics
Duane Gish                Ph.D. Biochemistry
David Menton            Ph.D. Cell Biology
Donald Chittick          Ph.D.  Physical Chemistry
Tom Greene              Ph.D.  Astronomy
Jason Lisle                Ph.D.  Astrophysics
Russell Humphreys   Ph.D  Physics
Don DeYoung            Ph.D.  Physics
Terry Mortenson       Ph.D. History of Geology
John baumgardner   Ph.D. Geophysics
Bob Compton            Ph.D. Physiology, DVM
Andy McIntosh         Ph.D.  Combustion Theory
John Johnson           Ph.D. Mathematics
Tommy Mitchel          M.D.
Andrew Snelling       Ph.D. Geology
Emil Silvestre           Ph.D. Geology
Esther Su                 Ph.D. Biochemistry
David DeWitt           Ph.D. Neuroscience

Darwin's Day 
by Henry Morris III, D.Min.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." (2 Peter 2:1)

Thousands of clergy have signed "An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science."  On the Sunday closest to Charles Darwin's birthday, these "pastors" eulogize him and endorse evolutionary science as compatible with the Bible. Here are five reasons why this idea is grossly wrong.

• The Bible has absolutely no hint of ages of evolutionary development.  Forcing the "days" of Genesis 1 to mean "ages" can be done, but there is no support for that idea in the rest of Scripture (Psalm 33:6-9, 148:5-6; John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:3; Revelation 4:11; etc.).

• Evolution is not observed at all today.  Empirical science is based on observation and verification.  Nothing (from bacteria to people) is "evolving" into a "higher order."  Period.

• Fossil data does not show any transitional forms.  If evolution occurred prior to recorded history, it can only be documented by the fossils embedded in the water-deposited rocks of earth.  Those "missing links" are still missing.

• God's character absolutely forbids evolutionary methods.  God's holiness demands truth, and His omniscience demands perfection.  He cannot know what is best and then "create" something inferior.  He wrote that He took six days to create the universe (Exodus 20:11).  And He cannot lie!

• God's stated purpose for creating excludes evolution.  The creation reveals the Creator (Romans 1:20, Psalm 19:1-4), gives authority to the message of Jesus Christ (John 1:1-14, Colossians 1:16-18), and is the foundation for the gospel and for worship (Revelation 14:6-7).  Creating is what God does at the moment of the new birth (Ephesians 2:8-10).  HMM III

U better shut up. How can you use the bible to determine events, first we saw lies in the age of the earth by ur so called inspired bible writer. If paul could be a fool why will you follow footstep of a madman. Check 2 cor 11:1 'i wish you could bear with me in a little foolishness, do bear with me'


wake up people

Abuzola:

U better shut up. How can you use the bible to determine events, first we saw lies in the age of the earth by ur so called inspired bible writer. If paul could be a fool why will you follow footstep of a madman. Check 2 cor 11:1 'i wish you could bear with me in a little foolishness, do bear with me'


wake up people

This condition that you think is a talent that is making you as popular as goat dung is actually a mental illness. You better seek for help in the right places.  Jesus is the only one who can help you now.

Jesus ? Roflmao, the god that cannot even save himself from mere people, see how ur god cried like ram mathew 27:46 'in the nineth hour he cried with a loud voice saying 'my god my god why did you forsake me'
buzz

Abuzola:

Jesus ? Roflmao, the god that cannot even save himself from mere people, see how ur god cried like ram mathew 27:46 'in the nineth hour he cried with a loud voice saying 'my god my god why did you forsake me'
buzz

"Were dun wo ko se e bi l'omo"  If you are wise you will ask your elders like olabowale to interprete and explain that proverb to you.

Interprete ké , when am a highly learned pastor. You need counselling from me, obviously you lack bible meditation

In the Book of Beginnings, in Genesis 16:12, God said that Ishmael (the progenitor of the Arab race), would be a "wild man . . . and every man's hand [will be] against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." Almost four thousand years later, who could deny that this prophecy is being fulfilled in the Arab race? The Arabs and the Jews are "brethren" having Abraham as their ancestor. The whole Middle East conflict is caused by their dwelling together. Is anyone still surprised of the conflict between Christianity and Islam? The historical accuracy of the Bible shows that the Bible stands alone.

OLAADEGBU:

In the Book of Beginnings, in Genesis 16:12, God said that Ishmael (the progenitor of the Arab race), would be a "wild man . . . and every man's hand [will be] against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." Almost four thousand years later, who could deny that this prophecy is being fulfilled in the Arab race? The Arabs and the Jews are "brethren" having Abraham as their ancestor. The whole Middle East conflict is caused by their dwelling together. Is anyone still surprised of the conflict between Christianity and Islam? The historical accuracy of the Bible shows that the Bible stands alone.

U better shut up. How can you use the bible to determine events, first we saw lies in the age of the earth by ur so called inspired bible writer. If paul could be a fool why will you follow footstep of a madman. Check 2 cor 11:1 'i wish you could bear with me in a little foolishness, do bear with me'

OLAADEGBU:

The Bible is clear on the exact manner/process the creatures came about which I will be explaining later as time permits.

Your explanation was 'supernatural' - can you explain to me what this supernatural process involves? Does it take 2 seconds, 2 minutes or how long exactly between the spoken word and the creature coming into being? Without these details, can you actually say you know HOW it occurred?

I suggest that you check on the link given to Tudor below to find out the answer to your question.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v3/n1/zonkeys-ligers-wholphins

This link shows nothing - I am not talking about cross-breeding of existing species, I am talking about how they originated in the first place which you CANNOT answer since the information is not given in the bible. At least accept that and separate your OPINIONS from what is actually INSIDE the bible.

This question betrays your bias towards biological evolution. The fact that the company that manufactures Jaguar cars and concorde planes does not mean that concorde evolved from the Jaguar car, it only means that they share the same manufacturer. The same goes for cats and dogs they share the same Creator and not the same ancestor. 

I have no bias towards anything - what I have a strong bias AGAINST, is taking personal opinion and forcing it into the bible - the bible DOES NOT tell you that cats and dogs have no common ancestor. This is a very simple question and you have failed to address it, instead giving analogies that are completely irrelevant.

The Bible doesn't attempt to defend its inspiration.  But here is an interesting thing: Genesis opens with the words, "God said," 9 times in the first chapter.  The statement, "Thus says the Lord," appears 23 times in the last Old Testament book, Malachi.  So you have, "God says," from Genesis to Malachi.  "The Lord spoke," appears 560 times in the first 5 books of the Bible and at least 3,800 times in the whole of the Old Testament!  Isaiah claims at least 40 times that his message came directly from the Lord; Ezekiel, 60 times; and Jeremiah, 100 times.

There are about 3,856 verses directly or indirectly concerned with prophecy in Scripture.  God's challenge to the world is, "Prove Me now . . . I the LORD have spoken it; it shall come to pass." (Malachi 3:10; Ezekiel 24:14).  Muslims, Mormons, JW's, and Buddists have their own sacred writings, but the element of proven prophecy is absent in them.  The destruction of Tyre, the invasion of Jerusalem, the fall of Babylon and Rome each event was accurately predicted in the Bible and later fulfilled to the smallest detail.  The Bible with no doubt is the inspired Word of God.

Abuzola:

U better shut up. How can you use the bible to determine events, first we saw lies in the age of the earth by ur so called inspired bible writer. If paul could be a fool why will you follow footstep of a madman. Check 2 cor 11:1 'i wish you could bear with me in a little foolishness, do bear with me'


wake up people

how old did is the earth according to ur koran?

debosky:

Your explanation was 'supernatural' - can you explain to me what this supernatural process involves? Does it take 2 seconds, 2 minutes or how long exactly between the spoken word and the creature coming into being? Without these details, can you actually say you know HOW it occurred?

If you are allergic to reading the Bible can you at least read the posts that I made in response to your question? 

•Does the Bible tell us how it was created?  If you guys only read the Bible without your evolutionary spectacles, then you will find out how God created.  In Genesis 1 it says and "God said" at least 9 times.  He spoke it supernaturally into existence by His great Power.  Psalm.33:6-9; Heb.11:3.  You can see (without those goggles of yours) that the Bible clearly tells us how God created, and it is not open to anyones personal opinion.

•Does the Bible tell us when God created?  Yes it does.  And nobody disagrees (except you are an evolutionist and atheist).  Everybody agrees and its called "In the Beginning"

Since you insist on being spoon fed let us read the Bible. Psalm 33:6-9

"By the word of the LORD where the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. He gathers the waters of the sea together as an heap: He lays up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD: Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in fear of awe of Him. For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast."

Noetic why do keep answering question with question. Unba na him i sabi

Abuzola:

Noetic why do keep answering question with question. Unba na him i sabi

are u saying the koran is empty? how old does allah say the earth is?

OLAADEGBU:

If you are allergic to reading the Bible can you at least read the posts that I made in response to your question?  

I have read it - it sheds no light on a process. The bible says:

Genesis 1:1[i] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [/i]

How was this creation achieved? By what process? We DO NOT KNOW!! Why attempt to say you know what you do not?  

Genesis 1:24 hen God said, “Let the earth produce every sort of animal, each producing offspring of the same kind—livestock, small animals that scurry along the ground, and wild animals.” And that is what happened. 25 God made all sorts of wild animals, livestock, and small animals, each able to produce offspring of the same kind. And God saw that it was good.

Does the Bible tell us how it was created?  If you guys only read the Bible without your evolutionary spectacles, then you will find out how God created.  In Genesis 1 it says and "God said" at least 9 times.  He spoke it supernaturally into existence by His great Power.  Psalm.33:6-9; Heb.11:3.  You can see (without those goggles of yours) that the Bible clearly tells us how God created, and it is not open to anyones personal opinion.

God spoke and it came into being that is what we know, if the 'coming into being' was by oxygen uniting with hydrogen and carbon and then forming cells, tissues, etc, WE DO NOT KNOW. If the 'coming into being' involved one creature birthing every other type of creature, WE DO NOT KNOW. How did the earth 'produce' these animals? We don't know the process!

We are told IT HAPPENED. What was the PROCESS? WE DO NOT KNOW!!

As your passage says - it was spoken into creation and that is ALL, it does not tell you what the specific precursors of cats and dogs were (if there were any) so why make a definitive statement about such a thing when such information is NOT GIVEN in the bible? Stop sticking your personal opinion about cats and dogs into the bible.

What we know is that God created everything - that is ALL.

debosky:

Your explanation was 'supernatural' - can you explain to me what this supernatural process involves? Does it take 2 seconds, 2 minutes or how long exactly between the spoken word and the creature coming into being? Without these details, can you actually say you know HOW it occurred?

Some of the early church fathers believed that God created everything in only one day or in an instant.  To counter this teaching, Martin Luther wrote:

"When Moses writes that God created Heaven and earth and whatever is in them in six days, then let this period continue to have been six days, and do not venture to devise any comment according to which six days were one day.  But, if you cannot understand how this could have been done in six days, then grant the Holy Spirit the honour of being more learned than you are.  For you are to deal with Scripture in such a way that you bear in mind that God Himself says what is written.  But since God is speaking, it is not fitting for you to wantonly turn His Word in the direction you wish it to go."

This is what the inspired Word of God says in Hebrews 11:3

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

If you claim to be a Christian I will expect you to understand the difference between the supernatural and the natural, except you are a naturalist.

OLAADEGBU:

This is what the inspired Word of God says in Hebrews 11:3

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

If you claim to be a Christian I will expect you to understand the difference between the supernatural and the natural, except you are a naturalist.

We understand by faith - meaning we do not try to 'explain' things the way you have been doing!!

We do not make claims that we cannot substantiate - we simply believe God created everything, without making these inaccurate attempts to define what has not defined in the bible (e.g ancestry of dogs and cats)

This has been my point from the very beginning - but you keep trying to 'prove' that you know something not stated in the bible.

debosky:

We understand by faith - meaning we do not try to 'explain' things the way you have been doing!!

We do not make claims that we cannot substantiate - we simply believe God created everything, without making these inaccurate attempts to define what has not defined in the bible (e.g ancestry of dogs and cats)

This has been my point from the very beginning - but you keep trying to 'prove' that you know something not stated in the bible.

If you hold on to evolutionism as a means by which God created then you have to know that Evolution is based on something called materialism. It is the ideology that there is no Creator God, that all that exists in this universe is mass and energy. The Bible on the other hand clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is the Creator. In other words, If Evolution is true then the Bible has to be wrong and if the Bible is true which it is then evolution has to be wrong. They are both mutually exclusive.

OLAADEGBU:

If you hold on to evolutionism as a means by which God created then you have to know that Evolution is based on something called materialism. It is the ideology that there is no Creator God, that all that exists in this universe is mass and energy. The Bible on the other hand clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is the Creator. In other words, If Evolution is true then the Bible has to be wrong and if the Bible is true which it is then evolution has to be wrong. They are both mutually exclusive.

The bible was not written to answer scientific questions.

OLAADEGBU:

If you hold on to evolutionism as a means by which God created then you have to know that Evolution is based on something called materialism. It is the ideology that there is no Creator God, that all that exists in this universe is mass and energy. The Bible on the other hand clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is the Creator. In other words, If Evolution is true then the Bible has to be wrong and if the Bible is true which it is then evolution has to be wrong. They are both mutually exclusive.

Ola I do not hold on to ANYTHING - where have I shown I hold on to evolution?

What is evolution if not a theory? Can it not be re-written tomorrow if some new 'evidence' emerges?

What is true is that God created everything - Evolution is a theory and cannot be even compared to the word of God, so all this mutually exclusive jargon is unnecessary.

I will always be skeptical of proving 'nature' with the bible because of the mistakes made in the past. Copernicus was excommunicated because people genuinely believed that the bible SAID that the earth was the centre of the universe and he was proposing otherwise. At that time too, I am sure they made this same argument that 'the bible says the earth is the centre, while copernicus says it is not. Both are mutually exclusive so one has to be wrong and the other right'

Do you see the flaw in your methodology now?

Stick to the message of the bible and quit trying to prove things that are not explicitly stated in the bible. That is the import of all my posts.

debosky:

This link shows nothing - I am not talking about cross-breeding of existing species, I am talking about how they originated in the first place which you CANNOT answer since the information is not given in the bible. At least accept that and separate your OPINIONS from what is actually INSIDE the bible.

The Bible declares 10 times in Genesis 1 that everything created by God was given power to reproduce its own kind.  No one thing could break this law and produce any other kind (Gen.1:20-28).  1656 years later it had not been broken (Gen.7:14) as a Bible commentator put it.  Now after more than 6,000 years the law of reproduction is still unbroken.  The sponge is still a sponge and has not become an oyster, octopus, a turtle, frog, fish or crab.  None of these have ever reproduced anything except their own kind.  No lowly earthworm has ever turned into a spider, tarantula, scorpion, lizard, tortoise, snake or crocodile.  No bug, bird or animal has ever changed from its own kind or reproduced another kind which was fertile and could produce a new kind.  The crossing of an ass and a mare, for instance, will produce a mule which cannot reproduce itself.  No monkey has ever produced a man and  the missing link is still missing and always will be.

OLAADEGBU:

The Bible declares 10 times in Genesis 1 that everything created by God was given power to reproduce its own kind.  No one thing could break this law and produce any other kind (Gen.1:20-28).  1656 years later it had not been broken (Gen.7:14) as a Bible commentator put it.  Now after more than 6,000 years the law of reproduction is still unbroken.  The sponge is still a sponge and has not become an oyster, octopus, a turtle, frog, fish or crab.  None of these have ever reproduced anything except their own kind.  No lowly earthworm has ever turned into a spider, tarantula, scorpion, lizard, tortoise, snake or crocodile.  No bug, bird or animal has ever changed from its own kind or reproduced another kind which was fertile and could produce a new kind.  The crossing of an ass and a mare, for instance, will produce a mule which cannot reproduce itself.  No monkey has ever produced a man and  the missing link is still missing and always will be.

1. what makes an animal a 'kind'? Is this definition of 'kind' in the bible or is it your own interpretation

I Corinthians 15:39 gives 'kinds' as follows: All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

Meaning a kind encompasses BEASTS, not so?

2. What do you define as not producing another kind? Are you saying properties/parts of an animal cannot be transferred to another creature that can reproduce itself?

Are you aware of transgenic animals?

Transgenic animals, i.e., engineered to carry genes from other species, have the potential to improve human welfare in:

* agriculture, such as larger sheep that grow more wool
* medicine, such as cows that produce insulin in their milk
* industry, such as goats that produce spider silk for materials production

Do you know these animals have been 'changed' from the original 'kind' but still reproduce?

@ debosky

Calm down!  The rate you ask questions is faster than the rate that you assimilate my attempts at answering your objections.  If you had taken your time to peruse the link that I suggested earlier about "kinds" you would have noticed that it answers some of your questions if not all. 

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v3/n1/zonkeys-ligers-wholphins

If you had taken your time to read my posts, suggested scriptural references and some articles written by creationists your queries would have been solved by now.  Even when you read the Scriptures you read them with the evolution spectacles otherwise you wouldn't be talking about common ancestors which is an evolutionary terminology.  You asked about the process by which God created the universe and when I told you that He created it supernaturally, you still insisted that I should tell you the process and how He did it naturally.  If you look back at some of my posts especially about Galileo you will realise that I have dealt with that issue already, that it was not the Christian Church that persecuted him but the Roman Catholic church.  The Christian Church and the RCC are different entities.

So my advise to you is to go back through my posts and see for yourself I may even repost them as I see necessary.

Skeptics often try to ridicule the Bible by saying that the Christian Church persecuted Galileo when he maintained that the earth circled the sun. As a professor of astronomy at the University of Pisa, Galileo was required to teach the accepted theory of his time that the sun and all the planets revolved around the Earth. Later at the University of Padua he was exposed to a new theory, proposed by Nicolaus Copernicus, that the Earth and all the other planets revolved around the sun. Galileo's observations with his new telescope convinced him of the truth of Copernicus' sun - centred theory. Galileo's support for the heliocentric theory got him into trouble with the RCC. In 1633 during the inquisition he was convicted of heresy and ordered to publicly withdraw his support for Corpernicus. The RCC sentenced him to life imprisonment, but because of his advanced age allowed him to serve his term under house arrest at his villa outside of Florence, Italy. The Christian Church therefore should not be blamed for his imprisonment. It was the Roman Catholic church that persecuted Galileo.