@ Alethia, I still have not seen a place where Agbaje said that he is GOD (Capital G, note please).

A poster called newmi, said that categorically - but reading Agbaje's posts, i did not see that. What I saw was an argument for the imprint of the divine in saved souls - thus rendering them "gods" - note - small "g".

If I missed it where he said he is GOD, please someone post it in a quote so I can see it, thanks.

Me, I'm a spoiler so y'all will forgive me if I take us back

@MyJoe:

MyJoe:

Your views of the man, nuclearboy. You are entitled to them. But consider this:

D [thread]: Christianity is Ridiculous. How Can People Worship The Carpenter?
E: There are some people I don’t bother talking to on this forum.
N: Christianity is not ridiculous. If you don’t understand, why not ask?
D: Well, make me understand. I read the Bible. Did it not say…?
N: No. You are deliberately misquoting things. The Bible actually says…
E: You know, N, there are people I don’t bother interacting with around here.
D: Why do you keep doing this? Making indirect references to me without mentioning my name?
E: Well, I will talk to you if you say something worth responding to. But until then I shall take a backseat.
[20 posts between E and D later, with E imperiously insisting on being replied and hardly replying to anything]
E: This is why I don’t answer you. I will ignore your post henceforth. Everybody has similar feelings towards you. You are not worth responding to.
Here, people, see threads where Christians, atheists, and others react similarly to him.

My concern: Now, many here have someone they will not like very much to debate with and what do they do? They IGNORE them. So if you wish to ignore someone, why not IGNORE them? Why rub what you don’t eat around your mouth? Why get into a debate and bail out with a barrage of excuses? Why use lies to cover up for . . . I will stop here.

I cannot really answer for Enigma - I'm certain he can defend himself. HOWEVER, your bolded question! I have read a number of posters here (including some on this page and myself) "decide" not to answer DS any longer but to ignore him. NOT ONE has been able to fulfill their such "decisions". Why? I think its primarily because he does two lovely things

[1] slow down a bit (as it were) seeming more ready to listen. Then you return, then he strikes again. He does this over and over and gets the kind of outbursts Mad_Max, Chris and David have given him.
[2] Bait you (cowardice, ineluctable, the penultimate post etc) till you feel obliged to respond. then he strikes again

Its brilliant really (in his profession) and I personally have a lot of respect for that capability. But we're looking at truth here, not "best arguments". We address such in different manner - I will try to turn it into a laugh (if possible) and the day its not, I'll do something else. Enigma has his own way.

Plus I am yet to see one truth DS ever accepted anyway - this is the classic case of the dude who already made up his mind before showing up. Like we see in his response on Inesqor's last post. Nothing based on truth will make sense but let Jo appear now with claims of being the seventh trumpet and it will make sense.

But please - Lets get back to bashing Joagbaje - He's more fun and allows us clear the air about many untruths

. . .Not having accepted TRUTH as YOU define it, Nuclear. . .

Do you not see that that is a two way street? You are yet to accept the prophet of infinity, no? That means you are yet to accept truth!

So you see, that's a claim EVERYONE can make about ANYONE who does not share their perspectives.

Deep Sight:

@ Alethia, I still have not seen a place where Agbaje said that he is GOD (Capital G, note please).

^^God with capital G is just a convention. Ontologically (one of your favourite words) god is God. So when Joagbaje says:

Joagbaje:

I am a god in my world.

it is the same thing as I am a God.

P.S. In fact writing god with uppercase g supposes that it is a proper noun. It isn't actually.

^^^ I don't feel that that is fair or correct, bro.

If he says "a god" - that is not the same thing as saying, GOD - and we all know this.

He further qualifies this by saying "in my own world."

So there are two strong qualifications. You may not like the guy, but let us be honest as per what he has said and what he has NOT said.

Cheers.

On another thread, I had asked Nuclear what exactly he found so appalling about the teachings of the WoF Movement.

He provided a link for me, and I took the words in the link and addressed them one at a time to show that the so called heretical teachings were actually founded on scripture.

Now mind you, as you all know, scripture is not my creed, but I have read scripture, and I am aware that these teachings actually spring from the scripture.

Here are the so called heretical teachings and my responses to each allegation of heresy - showing that these teachings are actually rooted in the words of Christ. Now everyone is entitled to his interpretation of those words, but the words are there -

Quote
At the heart of the Word of Faith movement is the belief in the "force of faith." It is believed words can be used to manipulate the faith-force, and thus actually create what they believe Scripture promises (health and wealth). Laws supposedly governing the faith-force are said to operate independently of God's sovereign will and that God Himself is subject to these laws. This is nothing short of idolatry, turning our faith—and by extension ourselves—into god.

I do not see that this is at variance with Christian teaching.

1. The power of faith is a key teaching of the New Testament. As i stated in the OP, Jesus himself famously taught that if men would have sufficient faith, they could walk on water or lift mountains into the sea. Whichever way you read these statements, either literally or symbolically - the connotation is clear: that by faith all things may be accomplished. Indeed in terms of walking on water this was actually literal as the scripture records that Jesus walked on water and urged Peter to do the same (and he actually did), but faltered, lacking sure conviction. If this is not a wholesale endorsement of the WoF teaching that faith accomplishes all things, I do not know what else is.

2. The extract talks about laws operating in the universe. Do you deny this? Does scripture deny this?

3. The extract talks about the laws being independent of God's will and that God himself is subject to those laws. Really this is just another way of stating that that which God has established is unchangeable in terms of the laws that govern creation: as such God is not to be seen changing his laws - and Bible teaching bears this out when it states that God is unchangeable. Understood right, therefore, this extract simply means that God will not change the laws of creation beacause those laws are perfect and eternal, as they proceed from God. For this reason there is nothing to change, and this is why it is said that God himself is "subject" to those laws. I believe this is mirrorred in the biblical teaching that heaven and earth may pass away but the word of the Lord abideth forever. That word, simply is the law of God, and this is what is said to abide forever.

4. It is thus not a question of turning faith into God: it is simply a question of realizing that there are latent laws within the universe and that the bible does teach that through faith one may key-into those laws and reach a desired reality. Jesus clearly taught this - and you will find that it is a standard piece of truth which is mirrorred in may oriental traditions as well. I thus cannot see that the teaching regarding faith is in anyway heretical or unbiblical.

Quote
From here, its theology just strays further and further from Scripture: It claims that God created human beings in His literal, physical image as little gods. Before the fall, humans had the potential to call things into existence by using the faith-force. After the fall humans took on Satan's nature and lost the ability to call things into existence. In order to correct this situation, Jesus Christ gave up His divinity and became a man, died spiritually, took Satan's nature upon Himself, went to hell, was born-again, and rose from the dead with God's nature. After this, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to replicate the Incarnation in believers so they could become little gods as God had originally intended.

1. I do not know that the WoF claim God to be physical - but without contest the bible does teach in Genesis that God made man in his own image.

2. If God did make man in his own image as the bible teaches, then clearly man must have had attributes of the "Godly" nature, which includes the power of creativity. Thus up till today, man actively creates things.

3. The bible teaches that there was a fall of man.

4. The bible teaches that that fall of man placed man within the will of the satan as conceived in the garden of Eden. The Bible teaches that this alienated man from God.

5. The bible teaches that Jesus' coming was necessary to reconcile man with God.

6. The Bible teaches that by his death, Jesus took on the sin of the world. This is exactly analogous to that which is stated in the extract above namely "taking on the nature of satan" - this simply refers to his act of taking on the sin of the world at Golgotha.

7. The bible teaches that by this very act, Man became reconciled to God - and Jesus urged christians to thereby excercise faith to influence reality.

8. Jesus himself referred to men as "gods" - and the NT teaches that by his sacrifice men would become brothers of christ in the kingdom of God. Does this not sync perfectly with the WoF teaching regarding the powers and status of the saved christian man of faith?

All of these, which are contained in the extract, are taught by the Bible. As I said earlier, Jesus himself propounded the thought that by faith men could control reality. I thus cannot see why there is such a mighty furore over the teachings of the WoF movement as expressed herein. Frankly it seems to me that those teachings are derived from the Bible. What I do understand is that different christian sects have different interpretations of scripture. This is only natural and should not lead you to brand them heretical - they simply have a different view of scripture which they are entitled to have, especially when all the things enumerated above are undoubtedly conveyed by scripture.

Quote
Following the natural progression of these teachings, as little gods we again have the ability to manipulate the faith-force and become prosperous in all areas of life. Illness, sin, and failure are the result of a lack of faith, and are remedied by confession—claiming God's promises for oneself into existence.

What is so unscripural about the foregoing? Did Jesus not teach same?

As a post script let me just say this: Scripture and christainity aside, thought, belief and faith undoubtedly influence reality. This has been the vocation of mystics for generations. I cannot see what is evil about harnessing the power of thought to transform belief and positively influence one's reality. That is what this thread is about.

Now add to all that the fact that earlier in this thread, Mr. Enigma himself (peace be upon him), stated in black and white that "man bears imprints of the divine nature." You then wonder who is contradicting who, and how Enigma (peace be upon him) could say such and yet disagree so vociferously with Agbaje?

This is not about my beliefs - but juxtaposing one christian perspective against another.

Chei this V.I. Traffic jam is terribly on point tonight

Congrats, Jo! You have won DS over!

DS, Im doing good, thanks. You need to re-read what I wrote, minus your views but with a view of the God/man nature of Christ. He was God & he put on man, thus he lived a perfect man. Then praying for us as we put on Christ. BOTH instances equate the entities. Jesus is God, we put on Christ. It doesnt make us God.

You like math. Think of a Venn diagram, the union of two sets. Hope my views are clearer. I believe they're true, but maybe Enigma has other views, I cant tell.

You know what?  

What is it with this claim of being gods sef?

The people who the term of "Ye are gods." was originally applied to did not have Christ did they?
So, what is this claim that once you have Christ, you become a god?

It most likely means that without Christ;  as indicated by the Psalm 82 verse, people were gods.
Therefore, even today,without Christ a lot of people are gods.

So what is this superior claim that these god-claiming people are making?
They're trying to show that they're superior to others who do not have/believe in Christ or what?

InesQor:

Chei this V.I. Traffic jam is terribly on point tonight

Why would you be so suicidal as to enter the traffic. I can actually see it from my window right here in the office.

I would urge you to make a detour for guiness stout and peppersoup. I know a great joint off Awolowo Road with excellent catfish. You can meet me there in an hour.

Congrats, Jo! You have won DS over!

I REITERATE: This is not about my beliefs - but juxtaposing one christian perspective against another.

nuclearboy:

I have read a number of posters here (including some on this page and myself) "decide" not to answer DS any longer but to ignore him. NOT ONE has been able to fulfill their such "decisions". Why? I think its primarily because he does two lovely things

[1] slow down a bit (as it were) seeming more ready to listen. Then you return, then he strikes again. He does this over and over and gets the kind of outbursts Mad_Max, Chris and David have given him.
[2] Bait you (cowardice, ineluctable, the penultimate post etc) till you feel obliged to respond. then he strikes again

Good, but this follows from an existing discussion. I am yet to see where you or anyone else butted into a thread JUST TO LET SOMEONE KNOW A DECISION HAS BEEN TAKEN TO IGNORE HIM. That one is unique and is different what the scenario you describe above. I wasn't defending DS. Just pointing out something in good faith. But, cheers all.

DS na wa for you oh. I thought you would walk away from this one but I guess your addiction is strong beyond strong.

MyJoe, perhaps DS gets that special treatment because he is special?

Deep Sight:

. . .Not having accepted TRUTH as YOU define it, Nuclear. . .

Do you not see that that is a two way street? You are yet to accept the prophet of infinity, no? That means you are yet to accept truth!

So you see, that's a claim EVERYONE can make about ANYONE who does not share their perspectives.

But here's your problem - you need to show me where I ever argued against your theories of infinity. What you miss is that whist you are obsessed with discrediting Christianity, I accept your faith in "infinity" and do not question it.

On Joagbaje's claims of "in his own world", you again show your penchant to ignore some portions whist highlighting what pushes your argument (in your mind). Inesqor and Aletheia have stated explicitly that "gods" are so named AND worshiped. Who worships Joagbaje? Also, the Bible states point-blank that ANYONE claiming to be "God" or a "god" is a fake. That is THE final word, not interpretations of what we'd like things to mean.

Faith is not an issue here! But if you'd like us to do "faith", deal with this -  "Ye ask and ye receive not, because you ask amiss" - Please address that in light of the WOFER style of tapping into YOUR OWN faith

BTW, you are NOT juxtaposing one christian perspective against another. Its a Christian view against a "deluded" view!

nuclearboy:

Inesqor and Aletheia have stated explicitly that "gods" are so named AND worshiped. Who worships Joagbaje?

The elements. That is the answer.

Now take this in careful context - what really is worship? I am certain that in a sense I worship my fiancee. She would tell you I am the most responsive person ever. If she crooks her finger, I jump. If she has back-ache, I will spend the night massaging her back to relieve her muscles long after she is fast asleep. And in the quiet of the night I am awestruck at how much I love her.

That is worship - and that certainly renders her a goddess of a sort to me.

Now if the elements will pander to the command of the man of faith, a good construct can be built to assert that the elements revolve around conscious sentient beings - in the same way as all elements ultimately revolve around the ultimagte sentient being - God.

It thus follows that when Jesus says - if you will have faith, you may command mountains - that clearly, his teaching is that the conscious human spirit has dominion over the elements. What is that if not godship?

Again  Jesus said to the storm - "be still" - and it was so. He also taught that the man of faith could exceed his works - which implies clearly that the man of faith can do the same and command the elements - that is - under Jesus' teaching.

So if the elements are set below the human spirit . . .is that not godship of a sort?

And if they will do the bidding of the man of faith, is that not worship of a sort?

@DS: wow. Would have been a great chance to meet you in person, making you the very first I'd meet out of all contacts I made via NL. But well at least 3 reasons are in the way. I am far gone in traffic, and also I dont take alcohol, I would be odd there. Hehe, for the record, IMHO its not a sin to drink though. Maybe we fit jam for peppersoup someday (not promising). 3rd reason, Im kinda otherwise indebted. I promised to meet someone else on this thread some months ago but hmm no show till date. TMI.

@Deep Sight: Your immediate last post gives me a slight headache. Even Kenyon, chief of the WOFers, did not explain all these beliefs that way. Na wa o.

Mad_Max:

Love you too JS. Who wouldn't? You're so random.

Maxy, you have levels of randomness that I can only dream about, in my dreams dream. Please, don't be modest on account of all the 'strangers' in here

Fabregas was busy making me wonder if I'm not gay and I missed all the mud slinging. I've always thought Joagbaje's position on the god thing was not unwholesome at least according to the verses that prop him and I've questioned the need of this thread at all but I see other people have picked up their toy guns and chosen sides. This makes the thread justifiable, I guess.

@DeepSight:

Please STOP - This is High Treason and I wish I could sentence you myself. Elements worship Joagbaje?   And who else? That infers they worship all men and your goat too! Please! ! ! ! ! ! !

On Jesus saying faith will move mountains, you prove your ignorance of Christianity. Faith is directed, realistic AND altogether dependent on God's Will. That is the difference between what the Bible calls faith and what WOF says. Whist we bring God into it, they say it is exclusive of God and dependent on the person in isolation. If it is in God's Will that you raise the dead, you will be given "a measure of Faith" that will enable that. That is why it says "as the Spirit wills". But you cannot go around saying whatever you want can/will be done. You insult God's sovereignty - that's why almost to a man, all the WOFer heads died as "men" - cancer, heart disease, accidents etc. It was like "showing them up".

But you are DeepSight and will revert with something worse.  

Where is [size=24pt]Joagbaje[/size]?

I want to see him respond to and try to wriggle out of

[1] Aletheia's post #127
[2] Inesqor's counsel of common-sense that tells us "gods" whether fake or not ARE worshipped and finally
[3] Ttalks perspective - Ps 82 referred to non-Christians who yet were called "gods" so whats new if such were so called and he now thinks that's hype

Jo, your "godship" ends TONIGHT! But then, you never did accept the counsel of reason!

nuclearboy:

@DeepSight:

Please STOP - This is High Treason and I wish I could sentence you myself. Elements worship Joagbaje? And who else? That infers they worship all men and your goat too! Please! ! ! ! ! ! !

This is a regrettable reading of what I posted. Joagbaje is not the issue. I rather tried to show that it is within Jesus' teaching that the elements are subordinated to the volition of the man of faith. And that connotes godship of a sort - to the extent that man is given dominion over the physical world. This is so simple I do not know how you could have mangled it.

Whist we bring God into it, they say it is exclusive of God and dependent on the person in isolation.

You are happy to admonish others to be honest, and yet you do not shrink from this patent falsehood.

Neither Agbaje nor the WoF Movement have ever said aything is exclusive of God. Please let us remain fair and honest. That has never been stated.

. . . . . or at least agree to disagree. From the verse in question, it sounds like a dalai lama saying that with which to control the elements is already within you. Gods as used there denotes a measure of command (with God's ultimate will of course) over something. Instead of going around in circles and asking Deep Sight and Jo to explain their positions, maybe Nuclearboy should explain what he understands by the verse and Jo can say if he disagrees, agrees or partly agrees to his meaning and everybody can go eat cookies.

@DeepSight:

Going through your rebuttal, I agree my reading of the first part was mangled. However, lets suppose Faith allows me "control" the elements which then you would wish to suppose are worshiping me. That, friend, would be patently false. Faith is not developed, its not a course of study, it is a "gift" and as stated above, is NOT your property. Thus your elements would "worship" the owner - God!

The second part! I did not post falsehood - WOF believes in THEIR own confession. They say it often enough here that they control events by word of THEIR mouth! They say you bring things into being by confessing what you want - not what God wants (but then they are god, no?). They negate the God factor. And this started out so insidious that it gradually brought up other issues which are why they are being called out so often today - like Paula White taking "atonement offerings" which negate the sacrifice of Christ OR Copeland saying he could have done what Christ did!

nuclearboy:

@DeepSight:

Going through your rebuttal, I agree my reading of the first part was mangled. However, lets suppose Faith allows me "control" the elements which then you would wish to suppose are worshiping me. That, friend, would be patently false. Faith is not developed, its not a course of study, it is a "gift" and as stated above, is NOT your property. Thus your elements would "worship" the owner - God!

Thank you.

But please I need to make something clear - I am not trying to advance to you that elements are engaged in active worship of man per se. I agree that all the activity of all the elements renders ultimate worship to God, there is no doubt about this.

However what I was trying to communicate by using that example in that fashion is the simple teaching of Christ that the elements are indeed subordinated to the human spirit - and this is evinced by man's dominion over the physical world - which is granted by God.

I was trying to show that this is sufficient to render man " a god" of the physical world - for you inquired in what wise man may be said to be "a god."

It is instructive that Agbaje specifically qualified "godship" by stating that he was a god of this world.

The second part! I did not post falsehood - WOF believes in THEIR own confession. They say it often enough here that they control events by word of THEIR mouth! They say you bring things into being by confessing what you want - not what God wants (but then they are god, no?). They negate the God factor. And this started out so insidious that it gradually brought up other issues which are why they are being called out so often today - like Paula White taking "atonement offerings" which negate the sacrifice of Christ OR Copeland saying he could have done what Christ did!

No, haba, in all things they still make reference to God as being the grantor of such. You cannot dispute that. I can produce quotes, you know.

Deep Sight:

It is instructive that Agbaje specifically qualified "godship" by stating that he was a god of this world.

^^Funny that you have become Joagbaje's advocate: Do you realize that you have just declared that Joagbaje is Satan.

KJV: II Corinthians 4:4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Interesting to note that the verses preceding this one say: " not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully." Joagbaje handles the word of God deceitfully for:
#1. There is no verse that says Christians are gods.
#2. However there are several explicit verses that emphatically declare that there is only One God.
#3. Ontologically there is no difference between god and God. The uppercase convention is to make clear when writing when one is referring to the One God in contrast to other false gods. When speaking does god sound different from God?
#4. Joagbaje says he is god; he is clearly in error and goes against the scriptures that explicitly say there is One God.

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

^^How does Joagbaje explain away this verse above that says there is One God? Or Jeremiah 10:10-11?
It's that simple, no matter how he tries to spin it. The strongest proof text that Joagbaje can advance for his claim is Psalm 82. And it has been shown in earlier posts that:
#1. The word elohim has several meanings depending on context. These nuances are lost in translation
#2. Those to whom God is speaking in that Psalm are rebellious earthly rulers; as also seen in Psalm 2 and Ezekiel 28.
#3. Psalm 82 refers to God through the Messiah judging the nations.

^^^ Yep; and on this point about the distinction between "god' and "God', it is interesting if you can conceptualise things in Yoruba. In Yoruba we say Ọlọrun meaning owner of heaven (or some say 'owner of the rainbow womb') but really meaning primarily "God" (Almighty). In modern Yoruba parlance however the word 'ọlọrun' is sometimes used instead of 'oriṣa' (basically 'a god' ) - because deity is believed of both Ọlọrun and oriṣas.

Sometimes, it takes an additional word to clarify when using Ọlọrun whether you mean the Almighty or some mythical or even false god: e.g.

Ọlọrun Olodumare ---- usually meaning God Almighty

Ọlọrun (or oriṣa) omi ---- the god/dess of the water

Ọlọrun (or oriṣa) irin ---- the god of Iron

etc etc

@ nuclearboy

Seeing that you referred to the gotquestions site earlier on, did you also see the following?

http://www.gotquestions.org/Yoruba/

Deep Sight:

However what I was trying to communicate by using that example in that fashion is the simple teaching of Christ that the elements are indeed subordinated to the human spirit - and this is evinced by man's dominion over the physical world - which is granted by God.

I was trying to show that this is sufficient to render man " a god" of the physical world - for you inquired in what wise man may be said to be "a god."

Even the 'rain magician' from my village can 'do things' to the weather. i guess that makes him a 'god' as well

Put the whole thing together then and what you get is this -

[1] The Almighty is the true God
[2] Everyone else is a false "god"
[3] These include Satan, men and likely even cattle. Based on the logic presented by DS, cattle defecate on grass and grass "worships" them by bringing forth - a power granted also by the Almighty, thus making them also "gods of their world" which is this world.
[4] Joagbaje and Cattle are the same

QED

@Enigma:

This is pretty embarrassing but truth is I don't read Yoruba too well. At least not original dialect. If there's any specific sublink under that link, please let me know it and I'll brave it! Interesting that they chose yoruba though - is it Nigerian/Yoruba owned and any idea how many languages they have?

@ deep sight

Deep Sight:

This is a regrettable reading of what I posted. Joagbaje is not the issue. I rather tried to show that it is within Jesus' teaching that the elements are subordinated to the volition of the man of faith. And that connotes godship of a sort - to the extent that man is given dominion over the physical world. This is so simple I do not know how you could have mangled it.

You are happy to admonish others to be honest, and yet you do not shrink from this patent falsehood.

[b]Neither Agbaje nor the WoF Movement have ever said aything is exclusive of God. Please let us remain fair and honest. That has never been sta[/b]ted.

Thank you .

@ nuc

Funny, I only stumbled on the Yoruba section recently; I don't think it is Yoruba/Nigerian owned and I don't know why they chose Yoruba other than possibly as a "major world language" in line with what they say here http://www.gotquestions.org/history.html

Also the name of their founder doesn't indicate any particular connection with Naija.

Oya nuc, go and brush up on your Yoruba kia kia!

THIS MATTER IS CONCLUDED I THINK PEOPLE LIKE NUCLEARBOY SHOULD AT LEAST FOR ONCE BE HUMBLE ENOUGH TO ACCEPT THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE LEARNT SOMETHING NEW AND STOP TRYING TO GIVE THE WORLD THE IMPRESSION THAT HE KNOWS AND HE'S ALWAY RIGHT AT EVERYTHING AT LEAST ADMIT SOME SENSE OF SOCRATIC IGNORANCE, WHICH IS A GOOD VIRTUE BECOS WE KNOW YOU KNOW EMM! NO DOUBT BUT PERHAPS YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THIS SCRIPTURE:

1Co 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
NOBODY is discrediting your love for knowledge infact alot of us are inspired by it, thank you brother. But in this matter its not a question of who have won rather it is that you have learnt something.

Note don't send a contrary post in reply to this, rather act honourably and admit Uhmm, l beg no fall my hand