Please stick to the thread. Its about islam. There are threads about christian religion and its woes.
Why is it that that when people talk about islam, muslims always assume they are christians and they look for bad things in christianity to validate themselves as being equal or better.

Christianity, Bhuddism, shinto etc will have their day. For now it is islam. lets stick to the point.

Satanism and islam are similar in a lot of ways.

Imagine the child in the pix strapped as a suicide bomber.

They indoctrinate them to grow up as murderers.

What a shame !!  What a waste!!


I couldnt help but notice the placard that said "europe is the cancer islam is the answer". I think the animals should go back to their respective countries if they feel europe is the cancer.

Hypocritical murderers

mrlawng:

Please stick to the thread. Its about islam. There are threads about christian religion and its woes.
Why is it that that when people talk about islam, muslims always assume they are christians and they look for bad things in christianity to validate themselves as being equal or better.

I don't think that I've deviated from the thread, nor did I quickly assume that you were Christian. What's informing your vexations?

@syrup

Sorry, I apologise. I am not vexed

Ok. Just take it easy.

I think the only way these extremists will be satisfied is if the whole world turns to islam.

That will never happen!

There maybe allot of stupid people in the World, but not that many that Islam would become the predominant religion!

Religion is evil and supressive. Islam takes the cake.

Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?
JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Which first--beasts or man?
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
How many stalls and horsemen?
KI1 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

CH2 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

Is it folly to be wise or not?
PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

OlaAjia,

I understood early in my Christian years when I used to argue with some moslem friends that the validity of Islam or any religion that calims monotheism whatsoever can only start to be established if Christianity and Judaism were really corrupted.  This knowledge has led some moslems to do every thing they can to demonise the two inter-woven religion (for indeed, Judaism is the school master that taught and led us to Christianity.  However, Judaism in its essence will still be practiced after the Church is raptured into heaven.  Anyway, I digress).  Think of it my man, do you think there really would be need for Mohammed after the birth of Christianity?  I don't think so.  No wonder your Prophet and others tried to build a foundation for themselves by claiming that Christianity was corrupt.  And many times, he contradicted himself about this anyway.

Going to the matters you raised.  Indeed, Jesus Christ and His Father are one and the self same Spirit.  The Father being greater than Him is only an acknowledgement that He submits to the authority of the Father.  For instance, in a marital set-up, the man is not more of a human beign than the woman, but because the man is in authority, the man is considered to be greater.  The woman might even be smarter, more educated and enlightened, but authority puts him in a position of greater honour than the woman.  This is very much like what the God-head is all about.  The Son is no less God than the Father, but the Father is in authority, and they are One and the self-same Spirit.

You need to learn to read very well.  The beast was clearly made before the man.  The entire creation was carried out in Genesis chapter one, and there the Bible also said God rested on the 7th day.  You incorrectly assume, or perhaps intentionally trying to mislead others by alluding that the account you write about is in chronological order.  The Bible's account about God bringing the animals to Adam to name them, is something that obviously happened before the creation of Eve (There are a lot of spiritual reasons for this, but I cant explain that on this forum).  I think you should just go back and read the whole thing and get your facts right.  The entire order of creation is this:  God created heavens and the earth, the trees, animals, and created the male Adam on the sixth day.  On that sixth day, he also broguht the animals to the male Adam to name them after which he created the female Adam on the same sixth day.  Chikena.

About Solomon's stalls and horsemen, I thought I should just bring to your attention, WES's commentary on this.  If you still don't understand, then I can explain further if need be: "1 Kings 4:26 Forty thousand - In 2 Chronicles 9:25, it is but four thousand. But it is not exactly the same Hebrew word which is here and there, though we translate both stalls; and therefore there may well be allowed some difference in the signification, the one signifying property stables, of which there were four thousand, the other stalls or partitions for each horse, which were forty thousand. Chariots - Both for his military chariots, which seem to be those fourteen hundred, chap.10:26, and for divers other uses, as about his great andvarious buildings, and merchandises, and other occasions, which might require some thousands of other chariots. Horsemen - Appointed partly for the defence of his people in peace; and partly for attendance upon his person, and for the splendor of his government."

Obviously, you need some wisdom to understand what the whole discussion is about it.  God is not against wisdom, infact, the Bible teaches that to us who believe, "Christ the wisdom and power of God."  However, there is a wordly wisdom which does not profit in the long run and which many times sets itself contrary against the knowledge of God.  This is the wisdom that does not profit that the Bible teaches we should be aware of.  If you follow Solomon's discuss and meditations in the later part of his years as brought to us in the Book of Ecclesiates, he clearly painted a picture of himself as one who has searched and studied and applied himself to everything incluing wordly wisdom and godliness.  In the end, he said the conlusion of the whole matter is this: "Fear God and obey His commands, "  In other words, there is no wisdom you can get that can be impressive to God, 'cos the Bible says "God's foolishness is greater than the wisdom of man".  And worldly wisdom will never bring godliness and is only profitable in this life and not in the life to come.    A lot of our Professors today are not the most spiritual, in order words, the wisdom of this world that they've acquired has not helped them one bit to be closer to God.  The Bible is not agnst wisdom and knowledge at all.  It emphasises it, but said we should not esteem all those above the fear of God and the acquring of the true wisdom of all: Christ Jesus.

@ Mrlawng,

Where are you going with all these? Go ahead, have your fun with the abuses. When Syrup tried to correct you, you quickly recoiled knowing fully well what the truth is.

ajia23:

@ Mrlawng,

Where are you going with all these? Go ahead, have your fun with the abuses. When Syrup tried to correct you, you quickly recoiled knowing fully well what the truth is.

And your point is?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a new word in the international dictionary to describe the militant,violent and intolerant face of islam,its called ISLAMISM. It is seen as a new threat to world peace just like NAZISM and COMMUNISM were international problems.Islamic fundamentalism is now a global threat.

Almost all terrorist attacks are by moslems killing innocent people in the name of ALLAH ,suicide bombers are moslems, some cartoons in a danish news paper and the whole world experiences riots leading to loss of lives across the whole globe, ALL DONE BY MOSLEMS. Fanatical Moslem countries and terrorist organizations are now tring to get nuclear weapons,to do what with, ??, for peaceful purposes, ??.

Nigeria has its fair share of islamic fundamentalism,northern moslems rise up from time to time and slaughter christains across the various cities of northern Nigeria,its is now a common thing that must occur at least once every three months,consider these senerios ;

(a) my uncle was driving along the road in kaduna some years ago , young men were chanting ALLAH AK BAR they stopped cars, beat up and broke the windscreens of christians,why were they upset, ??, because the Americans had just captured SADDAM HUSSIEN so Nigeria christians should be punished for that, i was soooooooo dissapionted in my country Nigeria when i heard this

(b) My wife was a youth coper,she went for her community development (CD), she parked near a mosque that was close to her CD site, after about one hour she was thirsty and came to her car to get a bottle of ragolis water,she drank and put the bottle back in the car,as she was going a group of moslems stoped her and started harrassing her,they wanted to beat my dear wife up.her offence, ??,that she drank water near their mosque infront of them when they were fasting,.other copers came to my wifes rescue, they may have lynced and killed her,making me a widower and my three year old son an orphan

(c) Ben bruce wanted to organise a beauty paegent in Abuja, a lot of the international crowd were already in the country, then our fellow country men (moslems) said its impossible because they were fasting,and caused an embarrassing riot,it was all over the international press.soooooooo they now determine what can , and what can't happen in our nation, they are very tolerant arent they, ??

(d) I work in an international enviroment,i was soooooo embarrased when europens kept asking me how my govt can allow a single mother to be stoned to death for having a child out of wedlock.the white men even told me how the death sentance is carried out in Islam, they said the woman will be buried for shoulder down,only her head above the ground,then people will stone her head till she dies,i was told that the sharia people were just waiting for her baby to stop sucking.they asked me how such medivial babarism can be perpertuated in the 21st century, my brother !!!! i was so embarraseed as i struggled for a face saving explanation,

the list is endless, Osama bin laden the terrorist leader is quoted as saying "NIGERIA IS RIPE FOR THE TAKING".meaning he has recognised that our nation has a large population of restive fanatical moslems that are good material for terrorist activities, i have seen young men in Kaduna wearing t-shirts of Osama bin laden

ask moslems, and they will tell u islam is a peaceful religion, but what most people see is a militant ,aggressive, intolerant, and fanatical face of islam,

comments,opinions, ??



Report to moderator 85.159.201




I started this thread – it has been interesting reading the views and opinions of others. Someone has once accused me of being rude and offensive in my opening thread. Was I….I don’t think so, but I may have been emotional, and ill give my reasons for being emotional

I grew up in Kaduna; it was a lovely and peaceful city then. When me and my brothers became men, we left our parents in Kaduna to build our lives elsewhere. My father built 3 houses in Kaduna, and lived in one. During one of the religious riots some of our neighbors, people we had lived with for years directed the “rampaging soldiers of Islam, to our house. The (the soldiers of Islam) where randomly looking for Christians to kill.

Luckily my parents where not in, the fence is high – very high , the compound has large iron gates , they did not want to expend energy scaling a high fence , if there was nobody to kill inside the compound, but they threw lots of stones and rocks, shattering the wind screens of cars parked inside and breaking glasses of the house.
I STILL DEVELOP GOOSE PIMPLES WHEN I THINK OF WHAT THEY WOULD HAVE DONE TO MY AGING PARENTS, Do you have an Idea of the kind of barbarism these boys practice, ??. Do you know how brutally they murder Christians in the North, ?? – My younger brother said he would have simply gone insane to know his parents where murdered like dogs.

We (my brothers) but pressure on my parents to relocate after the 5th religious riot in Kaduna. It was not easy for them, they had established businesses in Kaduna – they had to abandon all they had worked to build in the last thirty years and start all over in the south at such an age. THAT IS THE KIND OF THING CHRISTIAN NIGERIANS ARE SUFFERING because OF THE NEW WAVE OF ISLAMIC EXTEMISIM IN NIGERIA. At east once every three month they find an excuse to murder Christians in Northern Nigeria – I be I lie…?

Did you read about my wife, in my opening thread ?? .My beloved wife is a youth coper, she parked her car in the only space available , in front of a mosque and went to work , in the hot sun doing community development (CD) – a specified requirement by the Govt of Nigeria for youth copers. She got thirsty , and came todrink a bottle of water she had left in the car.Then Muslims try to mob her. Her offence – she drank water in front of their mosque while they where fasting

.They would have killed her, a 28 year old lady , my wife , - they would have made my three year old son an orphan , ended my four year old marriage and made me a widower – should I not be emotional, ??.Can any group of Christians react this way if a lady drinks water in front of a church, during the Christian fasting month, ??

There are many other instances I mentioned in my opening thread – are they not cause for concern,


Islam seeks to impose its way of life and will on others. Late Sheik Abubakar Gunmi of Nigeria , a respected and radical Islamic mullah once said “ my dream is to dip the Quoran into the salt waters of the Atlantic ocean” – in other words to conquer the whole of Nigeria , from the desert to the coastal cities of the Atlantic ocean for islam – such peaceful talk….!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now they have imposed sharia law in some parts of Nigeria. Its their way of life , so they have a right to do that. But doesn’t every Nigerian have a right to live any where in Nigeria…, can a lady now wear jeans trousers for example in their sharia environment without being molested, ??.I t thus implies that there are now some parts of Nigeria where you can not live if you don’t want to conform to the sharia way of life ie –segregation of females in public transport , dressing that conforms ton the Islamic code, etc.

Yet we say a Nigerian can live freely and peacefully any where in Nigeria – this is part of their gradually imposing a way of life on others. Does any one complain if they dress in the Islamic way any where in Nigeria…??, but just let a lady walk about the streets of Zamfara state in jeans and see how she will be molested. When France banned the wearing of Islamic veils by Moslem girls in French schools did you read about their outcry, ??. The French abolished the law. But they try to impose theirs on others.


If a muslim cartoons God or calls Jesus a homosexual bastrad , will Christians riot, ??. And kill Muslims?- vengeance belongs to God and he can take care of those who insult him , God is all powerful ,omnipotent and ominipresent .But just cartoon prophet Mohammed and the world is on fire – they try to impose their sacred values on others. To go against their values can mean death even if you are not one of them – an Islamic mullah will issue a “FATUAH” ( DEATH SENTENCE) on you – they will rampage and burn people and cities –the world must conform to what they want , they want to redefine international press freedom to their terms.

A picture I saw on this thread showed one of them carrying a banner that proclaimed “EUROPE IS THE CANCER, ISLAM IS THE ANSWER” . They do not understand the meaning of freedom as other societies see it. They only see from their stand point , and all must agree with them or have their cities burned down.

They cant accommodate criticism.- Noooooooooooooooooooooo you must not criticize anything about them, this is trying to cower and intimidate others to do as they want – take what they see as sacred .Are Christian doctrines rule and ways not critizesed , Do Christians resort to violence, ??- was Jesus not criticized sooooooooooo much by the pharasies?? – What did he do, ?? - he explained their folly to them – not issue a “FATUA” – DEATH SENTENCE – not ask his followers to kill maim and burn .Christian try to explain their point or feelings when criticized , they preach not fight. I know how they ( Muslims) react

They now use terror to try and force others to conform to their whishes – terrorism has become their weapon. They blow up innocent men, women and children – any innocent soul that is unfortunate to be where they use the bomb or crash the plane – Islam!!!!!!! – Very peaceful

Anew word now exist for their intolerance , aggression , and militance – ISLAMISM

Maybe rather than rant and rave and curse and threaten one of them may still convince me on this thread that they are peaceful people

@ Nubian

A very well constructed and unfortunately true post.

I am really convinced that the great fight between good and evil will equal-

A World War between the Free Democratic Christian Nations and the Tyranical Fanatical Islamic States!

@nubian

You hit the nail on the head. I was in kaduna to visit my brother, he was a senior military officer at the 1 mechanicanised Division army barracks at kawo. I was to stay for two weeks before returning to Lagos then back to the US. Unfortunately the Sharia riots started and i had to settle for an extended stay. I was safe as i was in the barracks. Thousands of Christians and non-Muslims flowed into the barracks in their thousands to seek refuge. My brother was away in JOS with the graduating NDA (Nigerian Defense Cadets), He took them for their last military exercise before their graduation.

I was staying at the officers quarters with my brother's girlfriend. I had to let some of the refugees stay in the house. But the influx was soooo great that the people were sleeping on the roads in the barracks with their children. Four days into the riots, a curfew had been declared. Only the military could move freely to keep the peace.
On the morning of the fourth day a military jeep pulled up in front of my brothers house and a naval officer came up to the house and specifically asked to see me. I didn't know who he was. When I confirmed my identity, he said was my brothers friend and he was sent form the neighboring state to check on us.

Though the curfew was on, he asked if i wanted a brief tour of the city. I quickly accepted and got in the vehicle. We were sis in the vehicle. He had four armed junior officers with him. Now her comes the part that left an emotional scar on me till today.

On driving out of the barracks, There is a railtrack (for those who know 1 Div in kaduna), on this track was the most gruesome sight i had ever seen in my life. An Ibo woman (how do iknow? She was dressed in her traditional attire) lay dead a few yards from the the railtrack. Her stomach had been sliced openand her fetus was taken out and placed on her chest. You could tell she was in the third trimester of her pregnancy because the fetus was no different from a baby. She was murdered by the rampaging Muslims on the assumption that she is Christian because she was Ibo.

Futher into the town I saw headless bodies, naked bodies of women, churches and shops were burnt. The gore i saw was endless. The military officer I was riding with expressed his digest at the fact that so many people were murdered by people practicing a "so called" religion of peace.

Even back here in the states. I was once talking to a woman at the emergency room in the hospital where i am currently training as a doctor. She was delighted about the treatment she got and prayed for me and my mates in Islam. For some reason I engaged her in a conversation about Islam and her feelings about suicide bombers. Perceiving this woman to be a mother and a decent woman, I was shocked at her response. I was hoping she would convince me otherwise and make me see Islam in a better light. How wrong I was. She said although she will not allow her children to do it (suicide bombing), she understands and sympathizes with the ones who do and that they will inherit the kingdom of god.

I came to a final conclusion, Islam in its current form is barbaric.

@ Nubian, and mrlawng.


I must say I was greatly touched by the stories you  both wrote. I cannot deny that these things happened, and as the reverend put it, they are unfortunately true. There is a part you both missed, and that is the part of the Northerners killing even Muslims that are not northern in origin. All these lead me to one conclusion, in Nigeria, the Northerners use religion as a cover up to carry out their frustrations which are borne out of poverty. I served in the North, and I know that the way these people live is so bad, and we have to join hands to liberate the hapless fellows that carry out these heinous crimes against humanity. Someone that is so poor will see himself as better dead-this is the exact thinking selfish, self-serving leaders with some hidden agenda play on, to incite these fellows. I also have my own experiences of violence with them, but I must tell you all I did to conquer some of these situations was being extremely patient. Having known their psyche, I knew the only panacea would be to be patient and allow the reasonable ones prevail upon the unreasonable ones.

The other muslims elsewhere in the world that blow up themselves are in a situation which they consider hopeless, and this makes them do such. Imagine what will make a right thinking fellow blow himself up? But, these things happen because of the perceived injustice done to them, and they feel they have been so emasculated  that the only way to fight back will be to die. Then comes the promise of a good reward in the hereafter because they fight on a just course. This will make their actions more desirable. To solve those problems, we all have to make concerted effort to ensure that Justice is not only done to them, but must be seen to have been done.

A lot of people, Christians, Muslims, atheists, agnotists etc. see these injustices, but prefer to keep quiet in silent complicity rather than address  the root causes. So, they prefer to blame the actions of the Muslims which are the manifestations of the underlying causes, and refuse to address their grievances. It is especially convenient for them to do this because of the fear of irrelevance, reduced career prospects, loss of group memberships, and other things, for countering mainstream thinking even when they realise this to be deficient and evidently manipulated. But there are a few brave ones who stand up for the truth, and to these, I pay glowing tribute.

We need to stop making inflammatory statements that will further exacerbate an already precarious situation. We need to talk out of an understanding of the issues in the background, and have a will to solve these issues if we are to see the real message of Islam. And more importantly, we need to stop generalized chatisement of Muslims if we are to see real, learned and pious Muslims call the shots in the Islamic world. So long as everybody keeps their present belligerent posturing, there can be only one winner-the hardline exteremists who are way beyond line, but feed on perceived hostility of the world to Islam, employing demagoguery to sway the mood of the majority of ignorant Muslims to assume an equally and in most cases more bellicose posture, as a reaction to the provocative actions of their perceived foes.

To solve these problems, I would advocate a coooperation amongst  all stakeholders to ensure a diffusion of the tension, and give a chance to peace loving people irrespective of religious persuasion. Afterall, it was Nelson Mandela who said, while liberating ourselves from the shackles of the oppressor, we must liberate him too because he is a hostage of the hate which he has. Promoting the education of a vast majority of muslims will be a first step in liberating them from their view of the world.

Peace to all believers in the One true God.

@ Alija23


Islam is an evil religion. Its founder was a demon-possessed pedophile, who took as the true God the pagan Arabic moon-god!

Islam is a violent religion and will always be. The Imans teach that Christians are Satan's servants as well as to be killed. If a man leaves Islam, he is to forfeit his life. If a Christian does not accept Muhammad as a prophet of God, then they are to be put to death. There is no religious freedom under Islam and many missionaries have found this true at the cost of their very lives. This is documented in blood.

Show me anyplace in the world where Islam has power that you would want to live!

Now to address a few of your comments:-

All these lead me to one conclusion, in Nigeria, the Northerners use religion as a cover up to carry out their frustrations which are borne out of poverty.

The Northerners are Muslims? The question should be,  'Why are Nigerian Muslims from the North committing atrocities and murdering innocent men, women and children?' , 

The other Muslims elsewhere in the world that blow up themselves are in a situation which they consider hopeless

Why are the Muslim fanatics in Iraq killing hundreds of their own people each week?

Is it because they are frustrated with the West and not understood or could it be that Shia and Shite don't respect each other?

If Muslims can not even respect their own kind what are you expecting from non Muslims?

A lot of people, Christians, Muslims, atheists, agnotists etc. see these injustices, but prefer to keep quiet in silent complicity rather than address  the root causes. So, they prefer to blame the actions of the Muslims which are the manifestations of the underlying causes, and refuse to address their grievances.

You mean on serious subjects  like the Danish cartoons? or less serious gregrievance's like  9/11 or 7/7 or Beslan or any other of the daily atrocities that are carried our in the name of this evil religion?

Or do you mean the terrible gregrievances that the Muslims that come to the UK have. That they are subjected to fair play and are given homes to live in, schooling for their children, Jobs and financial aid?

These same grieved Muslims then murder the very people that have helped them in cowardly attacks, women and children murdered in cold blood. Could the root cause be that we are nice to these people?

they prefer to blame the actions of the Muslims

Because it is the Muslims that are committing these terrible acts! All the terrorist acts that are taking place are commited by Islamic fanatics and no Muslims denounce these attacks. You are all the same! Silence makes you just as guilty as the terrorist that detonated the bomb!

We need to stop making inflammatory statements that will further exacerbate an already precarious situation.

Why, or else they these fanatic Muslim scum will kill even more innocent people? We need to speak out even more than we already have been. Now is not the time to keep quite. Now is the time to tell these people that we will not tolerate their barbaric ways! That we will not be intimidated. We are going to fight back!

And more importantly, we need to stop generalized chastisement of Muslims if we are to see real, learned and pious Muslims call the shots in the Islamic world.

I totally support Muslims ruling and killing themselves in their own Countries. If I had my way I would deport every single Muslim back to his own Country immediately.

I do not care if Muslims kill each other. The more the better. Just let them get on with it is their own backyards and not in the UK.

If you choose to come and live in the UK, you do so under our rules and our laws. If you can not accept that concept, then it is time to go back to the sh1thole you came from!

Name one normal Muslim Country on this planet that is not third World, backward and tyrannical and I will give you a prize!

It is time to make a stand against the Islamic devils. It is not a time for reconciliation and dialog. That time has passed long ago. It is time for action.

If you have an ounce of reality in your brain you surely understand that Islam is trying to dominate and rule the World . I am sad to say it,  but I can envisage a major war in the next 100 years.

A war where the free thinking people of the World are forced to make a move to protect Christianity, democracy, decency, normality and the free human spirit against the devil incarnate,  ISLAM!

Reverend,
You're just a paranoid, narrow-minded and ignorant old man, whose sole aim is to cause dismay, mayhem and promote injustice and intolerance among humans. You do not deserve the attention of anybody, because as matter of fact, whenever your questions are answered, you pretend not to see the answers, and prefer not to acknowledge them. You rather want to continue making trouble. I wish you BAD luck in your trouble making. You're more of a devil's incarnate yourself.

@ Reverend

Following is the editorial of Nigeria Guardian Newspapers. Please read and react.


America's Misperceptions Of Islam
By Shurabuddin Ahmed
Never before has the image of Islam has been so terribly distorted in the US as after 9/11. Islam is constantly being defined and served to the American public by non-Muslim analysts. Most of them are anti-Muslim through and through. They deliberately present a distorted picture. Maligning Islam appears to be their sole mission.

On the other hand, Islam is also being defined by a small group of Muslim extremists who lend credence to such a distorted image of Islam. Both portray Islam as a primitive, rigid and inhumane culture which is basically alien to basic principles of modern civilisation. Islam is depicted in the American media as the religion of war, vengeance, hatred and annihilation. It is misconstrued as a fundamentalist religion which is intolerant of other faiths, which establishes a male-dominated society and encourages and promotes terrorism.

Islam and Muslim societies are same: Many Americans do not make any distinction between an Islamic state and a Muslim state. The term Islamic state implies that Islam is the central factor that shapes the dynamics of such societies/countries. In contrast Muslim world or society understood as a plural and concrete identity allows a self-conscious Muslim majority in defining their own reality in an inevitably differential and dynamic fashion. Here the emphasis is not on Islam but on Muslim. They are never religious by definition, and their cultures do not necessarily mean religion.

The entire Muslim community is lumped together as a single monolithic group. Muslim countries have generally been characterised as a unified single block known as the Muslim world. This hypothesis ignores the diversity among Muslims. Islam encompasses far too many perspectives which after all contend among themselves for recognition and influence. A cohesive transnational Islamic movement simply does not exist. Thinking of Muslims as a single constituency is unrealistic. It has innumerable currents: violent and non-violent revolutionary, reactionary and middle of the road, socialist and capitalist, democratic and non-democratic Islam as proactive in the Middle East is different from Islam in Southeast Asia. The Indian Muslims are different from Muslims of Uzbekistan.

American judgement of Islam has been greatly distorted by taking the extremes to be the norm. Extremists do exist at the fringe but it is unfair to judge an entire community on the basis of stray or isolated incidents. There is also a regrettable tendency to overestimate the influence of the fundamentalist groups in Muslim countries. Not all those whom the US government and media denounce as Islamist extremists are true followers of the faith or even accepted as spokespersons of Islam by Muslims themselves. Little attention is paid to the overwhelming majority of Muslims who do not support or join Islamist movements and who do not favour any single interpretation of Islam and its dictates.

One of the most widespread misperception about Islam is that Middle East is regarded as the mainstream or true representative of Islam. It is true that the Arabic language and sacred places in Mecca, Madina and Jerusalem give for Arab world a special position. In recent years oil wealth and sheer number of petty Arab states have added to their influence and inflated importance. However, Arabs account for only 20 per cent of all Muslims. Interestingly, there are about 100 million more Muslims in the Indian sub-continent alone than in all Arab countries combined. It is ironical that regions like South Asia and South East Asia, where majority of Muslims live are not taken into account.

The global Muslim politics is dictated by events in the Arab World and not what obtains in other regions. It is due to the problematic of Muslims versus others syndrome that several ethnic religious conflicts around the globe are not brought to reckoning. In general American diplomats simply do not count religion as a significant factor in formulating policy for non-Middle Eastern Muslim countries like Indonesia and Malaysia. They have an especially hard time seeing Indonesia as a Muslim country, even though it is home to 185 million Muslim populations of all Arabs countries combined together.

Many in America believe that Islam is inherently anti-democratic or, at best is not hospitable to democracy. It is argued that the political reality in the Muslim world has more often been one of authoritarianism, monarchies and dictatorships. It is forgotten that the dictators reigning in the Arab world are not the result of Islamic principles. They are more a result of global economics and the aftermath of western colonialism. Men, according to the Quran are born free and are equal in dignity, rights and status, their worth and merit are to be measured irrespective of their origin and application, all humans are equal before the law and are entitled to equal protection of laws. Presumption of innocence and due process of law are necessary preconditions of justice. The Quran commands Muslims to conduct their collective affairs through mutual consultation (shura) and grants the privilege of God's vice-regency to the entire Muslim countries rather than to a single individual or a specific group or class of people.

The selection of a Muslim ruler must be based on the free will of the Muslim masses Prophet Mohammed (SAW) had established a political system that was representative and consultative, transparent, accountable and accessible to every one. In fact, the Islamic tradition of rules limiting the powers of sovereignty is much older than the concept of constitutional law in the western democracies. One may call an Islamic state a republic since the Islamic law rules out usurpation and succession as grounds of political legitimacy. The institution of Majlish-Shura comes every close to a modern parliament. The Islamic state has to be based on the principle of separation of powers. It ensures the founding of an independent judiciary and no one including the head of state, is above the law.

Another common misperception is that Islam is intolerant of other faiths. However, the Quran clearly says that "there is no compulsion in religion". When Mecca came under the sway of Muslim and Prophet Mohammad (SAW) entered Mecca, then no one was asked to accept Islam as part of this settlement. The non-Muslims were guaranteed right to their religious convictions, to profess and practice their own faiths. As far as the inter-faith relations are concerned, both the Quran and Hadith the (Prophet's sayings) are explicit about the desirability of relations between peoples.

In the first Islamic state of Madina, there were not only Muslims but Jews and others too. All were guaranteed rights to their religious beliefs, to profess and defend their convictions. More importantly, Muslims have a moral obligation to be fair and friendly in their person-to-person conduct towards non-Muslim citizens, and will be answerable to God for that. They must treat others with trust, benevolence and equity.

After 9/11 tragedy, Islam is seen by many in America as a fanatical doctrine which encourages and perpetrates violence and terrorism. Islam like all religions is a religion of peace and moderation. If it does not appear to be so today, this is not due to the teaching of Islam but to interpretations made by those who want to explain Islam to suit their vested interests. Islam clearly denounces wars of aggression and the killing of innocent people. Though Muslim ideologues have persistently declared that terrorism has no sanction in Islam, the entire Muslim community carries the awesome burden of dispelling the false notions about the meaning and significance of Jihad.

Doubtless fundamentalist ideas exemplified by Taliban and Al-Queda inspire certain segments of Muslim communities. But such elements do not represent Islam's authoritative voice. One should do well to take into account the silent majority's positive equanimity.

Last but not the least, it is commonly believed that Islam treats women unjustly and wants to create a male-dominated society. One should not judge the position of women in Islam by taking the most conservative Muslim states as representative of the whole. Some Muslim countries like Turkey, Egypt and Syria gave women the vote as early as Europe did to its women. In these countries, women have long enjoyed equal pay and the opportunity to play a full working role in their societies.

Rights of Muslim women to property and inheritance, to protection if divorced and to the ownership of business were rights prescribed by the Quran 14 centuries ago. In fact, some of these rights were novel till the 19th century. Women received their instant liberation from the cruel social customs at the hands of Prophet Mohammad in 630 AD.

The need of the hour is to move beyond the facile stereotypes and ready made images and answers. The tendency of the American media to equate Islam with radicalism, barbarism and anti-Americanism would seriously hamper the understanding of Islam. The challenge before the US today is to appreciate the diversity of Muslim actors and movements and thus to respond to specific events and situations with informed, reasoned responses, rather than come out with pre-determined presumptions and reactions.

*Ahmed sent this piece from Dhaka, Bangladesh.



Now what do u think about my earlier offer of cooperation in place of animosity?

The religion of Islam is obviously from Satan. I constantly hold public debates with Islamic scholars to prove this point. The Muslims do not know that Allah of Islam is a demonic spirit. Nevertheless, christians should not hate the muslim people but should continue to pray for them, so that God will open thier eyes and bring them out of Islam. Jesus has commended the Christians to love the Muslims. (Matthew 5:44), even though Allah of Islam has commanded the Muslims to hate and kill Christians (Quran 9:29)

ajia23:

Never before has the image of Islam has been so terribly distorted in the US as after 9/11. Islam is constantly being defined and served to the American public by non-Muslim analysts. Most of them are anti-Muslim through and through. They deliberately present a distorted picture. Maligning Islam appears to be their sole mission.

I'm not holding brief for Reverend, and trust that he'd respond with his own views. However, I think the writer of the article really has an unbalanced perception of Islam in reality. It is not "non-Muslim analysts" who deliberately present a distorted picture of Islam; it is Muslims themselves who present that image to the global public at large. If 9/11 never happened, or the foreign occupation and invasion by American-led allied forces on Iraqi never occured, would Islam have been any better from the pre-9/11 atrocities committed against its own people? Shurabuddin Ahmed is blinding himself against the real issue by trying to snivel at the excuse that non-Muslim analysts are responsible for what Islam has become today in the eyes of the global community.

ajia23:

Islam and Muslim societies are same: Many Americans do not make any distinction between an Islamic state and a Muslim state. The term Islamic state implies that Islam is the central factor that shapes the dynamics of such societies/countries. In contrast Muslim world or society understood as a plural and concrete identity allows a self-conscious Muslim majority in defining their own reality in an inevitably differential and dynamic fashion. Here the emphasis is not on Islam but on Muslim. They are never religious by definition, and their cultures do not necessarily mean religion.

What's he saying? First, that Americans who do not make a distinction between an Islamic state and a Muslim state have got it all wrong? Or second, that his own distinction has made us the wiser between the two? This guy is a comedian to infer that "They are never religious by definition and their cultures do not necessarily mean religion." He needs to attend an Islamic school to be taught the basics. More than that, he even played a quiz upfront by switching ideas. Blaming America for not distinguishing between "Islamic state" and "Muslim state", he went on to distinguish between "Islamic state" and "Muslim world or society" (whatever happened to his "Muslim state"?).

ajia23:

American judgement of Islam has been greatly distorted by taking the extremes to be the norm. Extremists do exist at the fringe but it is unfair to judge an entire community on the basis of stray or isolated incidents. There is also a regrettable tendency to overestimate the influence of the fundamentalist groups in Muslim countries. Not all those whom the US government and media denounce as Islamist extremists are true followers of the faith or even accepted as spokespersons of Islam by Muslims themselves. Little attention is paid to the overwhelming majority of Muslims who do not support or join Islamist movements and who do not favour any single interpretation of Islam and its dictates.

Those are salient points that ring very true, and well noted.

ajia23:

The global Muslim politics is dictated by events in the Arab World and not what obtains in other regions. It is due to the problematic of Muslims versus others syndrome that several ethnic religious conflicts around the globe are not brought to reckoning. In general American diplomats simply do not count religion as a significant factor in formulating policy for non-Middle Eastern Muslim countries like Indonesia and Malaysia. They have an especially hard time seeing Indonesia as a Muslim country, even though it is home to 185 million Muslim populations of all Arabs countries combined together.

Sorry, as an example, the Arab League (the League of Arab States, formed in 1945) has failed after six decades and the Arab world knows it as fact: live with it. Islamic governments are not willing or are too reluctant these days to trade talks or exchange ideas among themselves, and the general feeling among Arab and other Muslims about the Arab League was well captured in the BBC Doha Debates recently. So, global Muslim politics dictated by events in the Arab world is untenable and too narrow a complaint.

On the other hand, I don't see why the whining about American diplomats not counting religion as a significant factor in formulating policy for non-Middle Eastern Muslim countries like Indonesia and Malaysia. Afterall, the writer has earlier said that the Islamic state and Muslim state are never religious by definition, and their cultures do not necessarily mean religion. So, how come this turn around lullaby?

Shurabuddin Ahmed needs to see things in a more realistic perspective. He has failed to deal with real issues and has only allowed his views to be shaped by a disaffection to Americanism.

@ mlks_baby

On the other hand, Islam is also being defined by a small group of Muslim extremists who lend credence to such a distorted image of Islam. Both portray Islam as a primitive, rigid and inhumane culture which is basically alien to basic principles of modern civilisation

.


I hope you saw this in his article? So he didn't mean that it's only the non-muslims that potray Islam in the way mentioned above.

He is right by saying Islam and Muslim are different, just like I would say Christian and Christianity are different. The Catholic churchordered crusades against Muslims in the 10th, 11th and 12th centuries, but that don't mean their actions represented Christianity or it's teachings. You are right that making a distinction now may be difficult, but that's only because there's no existing model to compare with. There is no single Islamic nation on earth as of now. What we have are Muslim countries that interprete Islam subjectively based on their unique experiences. And if the US or any other people or state assumes that Muslims are one homogenious group, and as a result formulate policies for that one bloc of muslims, those policies are bound to be inappropriate for them, because there is no real homogeneity accross board.

You a re right about his confusion on how Americans should view Countries with a large muslim majority, but let me also give a practical example to show you what hemeant when he said the middle east dictates the way Americans and indeed every other nation views Muslims. A black Muslim man after getting a Visa into the US gets to the immigrations stand at the airport, and on screening the immigration officer discovers he is muslim, and worse black. He is put through a lot of indignities supposedly because as a Muslim, he could be linked to, or have sympathies for the Palestinians or other Muslim groups. Now, what is the central issue here? The Americans view every muslim as a potential suicide bomber. Now, do you have suicide bombings in Nigeria? So, why would a Nigerian muslim be subjected to the treatment meted out to say an Iraqi?

@luvamuslim

Please provide proof that Islam is from Satan. Also that Allah is a demonic spirit. The Holy bible says Christians should love muslims yet they (christians) found it convenient to kill, maim, and carry out other crimes against humanity in their crusades? Look, I have read the bible many times and I know that except for the Old testament where God sanctioned fighting against your enemies for the Jews, there is no place where a war against unbelievers is sanctioned. Especially when Jesus (ASW) came, he preached peace, tolerance etc, and yet the church acted in contradition to this teaching of love, now does that tantamount to Christianity being from Satan? I am not saying that's what is making Muslims kill people today. In most places except may be Northern Nigeria, Muslims killing others is always because they are being oppressed, killed, and left with no means to fight back. They then resort to desperate measures like suicide bombing, choosing to die fighting rather than an inevitable death by the enemy. Now this is sanctioned and allowed in the Quran. It's called self-defence and it obeys the first law of nature-self preservation.

I am however awaiting your proofs.

ajia23:

On the other hand, Islam is also being defined by a small group of Muslim extremists who lend credence to such a distorted image of Islam. Both portray Islam as a primitive, rigid and inhumane culture which is basically alien to basic principles of modern civilisation

I hope you saw this in his article? So he didn't mean that it's only the non-muslims that potray Islam in the way mentioned above.

I'm afraid that you're trying to defend the writer's unbalanced article, and indeed I read through the whole article before responding. But did you not notice that what you quoted above was in no way helping the case of his opening paragraph?

Never before has the image of Islam has been so terribly distorted in the US as after 9/11. Islam is constantly being defined and served to the American public by non-Muslim analysts.

The question now would be, who is/was constantly defining Islam and serving the American public after 9/11 with these definitions - the fundamentalists in the paragraph you quoted, or the non-Muslim analysts in my quote above? Remember that I had responded earlier by broadening the scope to the global community and thereby disagreed in the understanding that the writer was narrowing his scope. Beyond the non-Muslim analysts there are [fundamentalist] "Muslims themselves who present that image to the global public at large" - and that is precisely my point.

ajia23:

He is right by saying Islam and Muslim are different, just like I would say Christian and Christianity are different. The Catholic churchordered crusades against Muslims in the 10th, 11th and 12th centuries, but that don't mean their actions represented Christianity or it's teachings. You are right that making a distinction now may be difficult, but that's only because there's no existing model to compare with. There is no single Islamic nation on earth as of now. What we have are Muslim countries that interprete Islam subjectively based on their unique experiences. And if the US or any other people or state assumes that Muslims are one homogenious group, and as a result formulate policies for that one bloc of muslims, those policies are bound to be inappropriate for them, because there is no real homogeneity accross board.

Your analogy does not bear upon the writer's distinction between Islam and Muslim. At the end of the day, he does not see them as defined in religious terms. So, using the Catholic case as a wet blanket for defining 'Christian' and 'Christianity' is dribbling round the issues raised. Second, if those Muslim countries interpret Islam subjectively based on their unique experiences, what's the headache of other Muslim countries who have their own subjective interpreations of Islam? Indonesia and Malaysia have not tendered any complaints against US foreign policies viewed as untenable to the Islamic or Muslim ideologies, have they? US did not make those policies regarding those other Muslim countries, so what's their restlessness about the question of homogeneity across board?

ajia23:

You a re right about his  confusion on how Americans should view  Countries with a large muslim majority, but let me also give a practical example to show you what hemeant when he said the middle east dictates the way Americans and indeed every other nation views Muslims. A black Muslim man after getting a Visa into the US gets to the immigrations stand at the airport, and on screening the immigration officer discovers he is muslim, and worse black. He is put through a lot of indignities supposedly because as a Muslim, he could be linked to, or have sympathies for the Palestinians or other Muslim groups. Now, what is the central issue here? The Americans view every muslim as a potential suicide bomber. Now, do you have suicide bombings in Nigeria? So, why would a Nigerian muslim be subjected to the treatment meted out to say an Iraqi?

You're giving the Iraqis a bad name for that inference. What happened in northern Nigeria in the cartoon episode is still fresh in many minds; and it didn't take any Iraqi connection for that chaos to break out. Now, if something like that could happen in Nigeria among many Muslims from the north whose actions were largely viewed as solidarity for Islamic/Muslim anti-American sentimentalism, what does that say about the unfortunate treatment of Nigerian Muslim blacks at American airports? Even after 9/11, when my dad and brother (both Nigerian black men) travelled to the USA with their Muslim names, they were not subjected to such treatments at the airports before even they became Christians. I don't really agree with your inference there about the example you gave.

Ajia

Ill summarize all that you said in your last post;

The world has a misperception of Islam as a violent, intolerant religion, that is male dominated and treats women as inferior.

This misperception of Islam is served to the world by non Muslims and especially by the US. You also said that an Islamic state is different from a Muslim state , you go further to assert that there is nothing like a global Islamic community ; in other words nothing like the Muslim world

I love logical arguments – I am not trying to whip up hate against Islam – I always try to see the sense in another person’s argument. HAVING READ AND DIGESTED YOUR POST THIS IS MY REPLY; I WILL POINT OT ATTEMPTS TO DODGE THE TRUTH AND OTHER FALLACIES IN YOUR POST;

You say Islam is misrepresented – is it….action speaks louder than words, are people not just saying what they are see, ?? – The violence, the fighting, the burning - which Muslims are doing. You say Islam is defined wrongly by non Muslims and the US –, Is it, ?? – Action speaks louder than words – is it not the violent and intolerant nature of many Moslems that is defining your religion – don’t you think it is Muslims who are misrepresenting Islam by their aggressive ways – the perception of Islam is defined by the actions of Muslims – sectarian violence, intolerance, terrorism etc – are you saying – THE AMERICANS AND NON MUSLIMS MUST NOT SAY WHAT THEY SEE…?? – THEY MUST NOT TALK ABOUT A FANATISM THAT THREATENS THEIR LIVES, ??

You say Islam is peace, tolerant of other faiths ,does not treat women as inferior , -is a jihad not permitted in the Quran , – did Muslims not weigh jihad in pre colonial Nigeria forcefully conquering the northern part of Yoruba land b4 colonialism stopped them.-where the people of kwara in Nigeria ,peacefully converted to Islam – do you know another name for Islam in youruba – IMOLE – WHICH MEANS AGREE BY FORCE . – Islam is peace? – has Islam not always sought to expand its frontiers across the whole globe; not by preaching but by conquest, ??

WHY IS THE SWORD SYMBOL OF ISLAM THE…, ?, —check out commercial vehicles , involved in the haulage business in Nigeria – trucks , trailers , lorries ; most owners are northern Muslims ; do you see the symbols usually drawn on the back of these trucks –Islam is boldly written with two swords crossing. – You say Islam is peace, ??- has it acted peacefully in the world , ??.

You say it is tolerant to other faiths – ill use Nigeria as an example – a Muslim can practice as he likes any where in Christian Nigeria; he can preach - do you know the mayhem that happened in Kano because Rehinard Bonke the great German preacher wanted to hold a crusade for Christians in Kano, . If a great Islamic scholar wants to preach in Calabar or Enugu or Ibadan or Portharcout , or los Angeles or London or Paris or Amsterdam – will the people of those cities rise and riot… – and kill, maim and burn, because a Muslim leader wants to preach in their town .
Islam only tolerates other faiths when it does not have the power to crush them ie when Muslims know they are in the very minority in that environment – despite being a minority in the US and Europe – do you know many mullahs preach hate in mosques across Europe and the US , ?? – to protect themselves the security forces of these western nations now arrest such mullahs for preaching hate , anti Christianity , anti Semitism , and encouraging terrorism .Tell me in which church on earth will a pastor PREACH HATE AGAINST MUSLIMS….

You say Islam treats women as equal – Ajia …are you trying to deceive yourself…, ??; do you truly believe what you are saying, – am getting tired of typing , I would have loved to point out sooooooooooooo many examples of how what you are saying is a load of academic falsehood as against the stark evident reality that we all see

let me just tell you this real life joke that summarizes a lot about gender equality in Islam – WOMEN IN SAUDI ARABIA ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DRIVE CARS – US TROOPS WHERE DEPLOYED IN SAUDI ARABIA DURING THE FIRST GULF WAR –SAUDI WOMEN SAW FEMALE AMERICAN SOLDIERS DRIVING NOT JUST CARS , BUT BIG MILITARY TRUCKS .IT MADE THE SAUDI WOMEN FELL SO UPSET ABOUT THEIR OWN OPPRESSION AND SUBSERVIENCE – THEY ( SAUDI WOMEN ) RIOTED DEMANDING TO BE ALLOWED TO DRIVE…!!!!!!!!!! OF COURSE THE SAUDI AUTHORITIES CRUSHED THE RIOT WITH FORCE – would you say those women live happily and are treated equally in Islamic culture, ??

The Muslim world is one – don’t try and dribble around to say it isn’t – all over the world Muslims have a strong common sense of identity - I work in an international environment – I see Muslims who have never know each other bond instantly , once they discover they are both Muslims – the greeting ; ASALAM ALEIKUM ; IS INSTANTLY EXCHANGED AND THEY BECOME FRIENDS ; MUSLIM BROTHERS IRRESPECTIVE OF NATIONALITY . Will I instantly bond with a German, Frenchman or Italian because I find out we are both Christians….??.

MUSLIMS ALL OVER THE WORLD RISE UP IN AN ORGY OF VIOLENCE ONCE THEY PERCIEVE ISLAM HAS BEEN INSULTED .Muslims all over the world keep quite when a terrorist act is committed, they all keep quite when there has been a massacre of Christians by Muslims – they do not rise up the same way to condemn those Muslims who did it – is this an acceptance of the “ACT “as having being done in the name of “Allah”

Why don’t they all rise up the same way to condemn these acts….??- yet they say “those few are giving us a bad name” – THE WHOLE MUSLIM WORLD HAS ONE COMMON IDENTITY, AND SENSE OF TOGETHERNESS – DON’T TRY TO DRIBBLE ANYBODY WITH ACADEMICS THAT IS AT VARIANCE WITH THE REALITY ON THE GROUND

I am tired of typing - I got other things to do – I could go on and on and on about the fallacy of your defense – let me finally just point out some very laughable things you said – Islam is not anti democratic , it is not authoritarian ,an Islamic state is different from a Muslim state, Islam denounces wars of aggression ,Islam treats women as equals to men , - Ajia – am sure even you does not truly believe deep down in your heart all the bull shit you wrote

@ Nubian

In a previous post, I had asserted that it is convenient for people to look at the manifestations of injustice meted out to muslims, and instead blame them for the reactions they often give. U were talking of how muslims spread the religion thru violence, now wouldn't that be self righteousness especially when you view the history of Judaism, and christianity that even caried out more bloody campaigns to expand their frontiers? The truth is from time immemorial, mankind has killed in the name of God. It didn't start with Islam, and it wouldn't finish with Islam, so to single out the Jihad by the Hausa Fulani to expand their territory and kingdoms using spread of Islam as an excuse is rather simplistic. And U said as evidence of Islamic bloodthirstiness, Jihad is allowed in the Quran. Tell me, is the right to defend yourself not allowed in the bible? Or do you believe in the doctrine of turning the other side in the face of open provocation and attempts to extirpate you because of your belief? Why would a pastor, I don't remember his name, ask that christians assasinate the President of Venezuela because he disagrees with a Bush-led America? This happened in 2006. So what's all the talk about peace and love being christian ideology? Yet you accuse the mullahs of preaching hate. Before you say that the muslims who blow themselves up are aggressors, you need to go back in history to examine America's foreign policy in these countries. Covert and overt operations to kill legitimate leaders are carried out when it suits America's purpose, tyrannical leadership that cooperate with the Americans are installed irrespective of whether these regimes believe in Democracy or not. Just in the same way America tries to suppress other countries that have resources that they want, including Nigeria, they push these people to the brink, and when they react, they are labeled terrorists, fundamentalists, killers in order to demonise them and draw away attention from the root causes.

Now you were talking of women equality. Hmmm. It may serve you well to go into history to research the early days of christianity. Have you ever heard of the sentence, women are to be seen, not heard? Where did that quote come from? Until th 1940's, in many European countries, women were not allowed to vote. Before the 20th century's 1st war, women were not allowed to work without the permission of their husbands. And even before then, pre-industrial revolution Europe, they were not even allowed to work at all. Now all these in the region that spread the message of christianity. What's all the talk about equality? The Muslim countries that refuse to allow Women vote are not doing so based on any Islamic doctrine, but on their own cultures. And in Saudi Arabia, women are allowed to drive so long as they are accompanied by a male companion that is their Mahram (Husband, brother, father). And don't get started that this is servitude because in any case these women are taken care of by their husbands. Before such rules can be implemented, there would have been adequate measures put in place to ensure that they are catered for completely. What better treatment can there be for them? Asking them to dress half-nude to attract men for commercial reasons? Or subjecting them to the harsh and inhumane working conditions that men are subjected to by the virtue of the command of God that he shall toil to make a living? And just to clear thing s up completely, the 1st wife of the Prophet Muhammed (SAW) was a rich business woman who actually employed his services before they got married. Now that was 1400 years ago in Arabia. The Prohet (SAW) never objected to her working. This alone should prove to you that in Muslim countries where they are not allowed to work, it's not Islam at play, but their individual cultures because even the Prophet (SAW) prescribed certain jobs for women.

You find it convenient to cite instances of when religion was used to fight the political battles of our power-hungry and depraved Northern elite, seeing those battles as a religious one inspite of the fact that southern Muslims are also killed in any supposedly religious riots there. Doesn't that tell you something? Why would a muslim kill another one when he is fighting a holy war? How many tims have southern muslims demonstarted against Pastors evangelizing in their areas? If you know Iwo, you would know it's predominantly muslim, yet they get visitors each year trying to proselytize to them and no protests happen. This alone should demonstarte to you that ur argument on this issue holds no water. ' Imole' ? It keeps getting better. The christians termed Islam that way to denigrate it and show the wetsrners that christianity is better than Islam because Islam seeks to force itself on people. Did you know that there were muslims in western Nigeria before even the North became muslim? And these people accepted Islam from visiting traders as far back as the 17th century? Were they also forced to accept Islam? Besides, the missionaries inspite of their christian faith actually carried out heinous crimes against the blacks by enslaving them using the pretext of spreading christianity. Should we judge christianity by their actions? You mentioned the Fulani Jihad, what do you really know about the motivation behind that Jihad? The Borno empire had a muslim leader and wre muslim before Dan Fodio carried out his campaign yet he still tried to capture them to ensure his own ethnic stock ruled over them. Go do your research again.

You are right about muslim solidarity, but that doesn't translate into Homgeneity. Islam is interpreted differently by different people and thus there is no one single view about Islam. And I reassert that there is no Islamic State as of now because no muslim country is governing it's population baed on strict Islamic doctrine. Instead we have a corruption of that doctrine to suit what the rulers of those countries want.

As regards the' bull rubbish' I don't understand what that means, but I can tell you I culled that article and did not write it myself. I do not agree with ll the views presented in it, but I thought it contained some home truths that fair-minded and objective people will see. If you say an Islamic state and a muslim state are the same, then a christian and christianity are also the same, meaning all the iniquities that christians commit as humans can be taken to be the instruction of the bible. I have read the bible many times, and I do not subscribe to that view. You are free to believe what you want.

Christians & Jewish martyrs say; "I will die for what I believe"

A Muslim martyr says; "you will die for what I believe",


@ Ajia23

And U said as evidence of Islamic bloodthirstiness, Jihad is allowed in the Quran. Tell me, is the right to defend yourself not allowed in the bible?

The Christian church does not issue death warrants against people for any reason.

Only Islam issues Fatwa and Jihad. They think that gives them a license to murder people who have different beliefs than their own. Take the case of Salmon Rushdie who did nothing more than write a book!

Now you were talking of women equality. Hmmm. It may serve you well to go into history to research the early days of Christianity.

We are talking about today and not what happened and few hundred or thousand years ago. Christians learn from their mistakes and make efforts to right their wrongs. Islam is still treating women like slaves and second class citizens even today. We are now in the 21st century, but Muslims still believe they are in the 4th century! This proves that Islam is an ignorant religion without the capability to adapt to the modern World in which (or some of us) live.

You are free to believe what you want.

Unless you live in a Muslim Country. There you can be legally murdered for your beliefs!


There is nothing positive about Islam. I look to the Prophet Muhammad as the typical example.

What did he do during his lifetime? First, he married a much older woman for her wealth. Then when she dies, he has all these kinds of religious visions. He organizes raids to rob caravans and massacred many tribes including Jewish tribes in Arabia.

He married 12 women, kept 10 concubines and had sex with a 9 year old girl whom he married when she was six. And he had a revelation from God that told him to take his son's wife for himself when he "accidently saw her naked".

And what is the purpose of the religion. To get a bunch of brain washed idiots to think that if they die for this clown, they will go to heaven and eternally have sex with 72 women. Or if they hit the other way, 28 boys.

So with this kind of background, it's no wonder that the religion produces nothing but sick and weird individuals.

Ajia23

The Quranic promise that Muslim men will be given lots of specially created virgins as reward for their faithfulness to Allah, is most certainly satanic. (Quran 3:15) The Quran also commands Muslims to hate and kill the Christians and jews (Quran 5:51; 9:29). Sucide bombing is clearly a means to earn forgiveness of sin according to Quran 9:111 and Quran 61:10-12

All these doctrines of Allah are lies that came from the pit of Hell. Jesus said in John 8:44 that the devil is the father of all liars. Who are the liars here? The Muslims? No. Certainly not. Not even Mohammed. but the spirit that spoke the word in the Quran into Mohammeds mouth.

The problem is not with Muslim leaders insiting their followers to violence. Not at all. The truth is that the spiritual force behind Islam is a blood thirsty demon which posseses the soul of anyone who deres to embrace Islam completely and seriously. How else can you explain the killing of innocent Nigerians and the burning down of Churches over a cartoon that was not published in any Nigerian newspaper. Islam is a riot looking for where to happen. The religion is from satan and I agree with the initiator of this thread that it is a major global threat.

I debate regularly with Islamic scholars across the city of Lagos and I'm making plans to take these debates to the north. I make bold to say that the spirit of Islam has no intention but to destroy the Muslim people after using them to kill innocent christians.

Chriatians have to patiently and lovingly show the Muslims the truth, so that they see reasons to abandon the shameful religion and seek for true salvation elswhere.

@luvamuslim

Well said.

I think we need to know that the Muslim made a very big mistake by translating the Quran into an English language, and that is why they could explain away the dirty things inside it.

There is nothing like montheism in Islam it is a mere cover up and a conjecture too, i pity too many muslims because they do not know who they serve and the sincerely believe that they are serving God
[color=#006600][/color]

sokislam:

There is nothing like montheism in Islam it is a mere cover up and a conjecture too, i pity too many muslims because they do not know who they serve and the sincerely believe that they are serving God

That's the one thing a lot of people need to know, even though this may come as a surprise to many Muslims themselves. Going through the Qur'an makes this stand out so clearly that one can't miss it by any chance. The obvious polytheistic leanings of Islam (even under the guise of verses purporting monotheism in the Qur'an) are often excused away by people who fear their claims may not afterall hold true.

@ Mlks_baby, Sokislam

That's your own view. So long as when I pray, my intentions are to the ONE true God that exists, it matters not what you think. Islam is founded on montheism, and all muslims supplicate to that God. If it takes muslims by surprise that Islam is polytheist, then in it is really monotheist, because it means the polytheism is not obvious or it doesn't exist. I'd rather be a "polytheistic''  montheist worshipper, than a 'monotheist' polyhteist one.

@ajia23,

ajia23:

That's your own view. So long as when I pray, my intentions are to the ONE true God that exists, it matters not what you think.

It really doesn't matter what anyone thinks at the end of the day; but it should matter to us what the One True God has revealed of Himself in matters of faith. If a person's intentions criss-cross with God's revelation of Himself, where does that leave the worshipper?

ajia23:

Islam is founded on montheism, and all muslims supplicate to that God.

Ok, if it makes you a bit more comfy. Afterall, who am I to legislate against anyone's faith? The one simple thing I ask you to do is reconsider the verses in the Qur'an that allude to Allah in polytheistic langauge - the "We" and "Us" of Allah in divine matters of Creation, Prayer, Worship and Service. You can't get very far before those verses leap out of the page at you, with respect to the question of how many deities could have been acclaiming themselves to be the creator and the object or prayer, worship and service. Please do this with an open mind: that's all I ask.

ajia23:

If it takes muslims by surprise that Islam is polytheist, then in it is really monotheist, because it means the polytheism is not obvious or it doesn't exist.

You can't maintain two convoluted positions (polytheism and monotheism): they are mutually exclusive, and Islam knows that fact. The difficulty in seeing the polytheistic leanings of Allah in the Qur'an is underscored in your statement: "the polytheism is not obvious" - that is only as far as Muslims refuse to see it because of the consequences - the fear of conversion. No, I'm not seeking to convert you on a Forum; but it might help you make informed decisions as to take a second look and see the obvious that is not so obvious - because it clearly exists.

ajia23:

I'd rather be a "polytheistic'' montheist worshipper, than a 'monotheist' polyhteist one.

Don't take the trouble to embark on that confused adventure: there's no end in sight to that tunnel. Christians are not "monotheistic polytheists" (whatever that means and if you meant it as a derisive appellation of Christians). Sometimes, the Christian challenge is a tough one - I've been there and know; and rather than close my eyes and ears, careful study led me to the conclusions undergirding my faith in Christ. The Trinity is not a mishmash of monotheism and polytheism. However, to choose rather to be a "polytheistic monotheist worshipper" is to purchase an online ticket that leads nowhere.

Take a break and do the check - I'd be interested in your findings (rather than conjectures) about those "We" and "Us" verses of Allah himself in the Qur'an. Who knows - you may come off with something far more interesting that you'd ever have imagined.

Enjoy.