dayokanu:

When it comes to the issue of money, Church leaders turn to lawmakers who must sit on the loot at all cost

lol abi. . .they all turn lawyers by force. Looking for technicalities and loop holes all in a bid to hold on to ungodly money.

CarlosVent:

PLS JUST BE CAREFUL IN your CRITICISM OR ELSE U MIGHT SAY SOMETHING AGAINST D HOLY SPIRIT AND D BIBLE SAID D SIN CANT AND CAN NEVER B 4GVEN.

AM NOT SIDING ANYBODY BT DATS MY PIECE OF ADVICE

Criticism of genuine Men of God, Not those who steal money

baslone:

Yeah, they kinda business like. . . but they ain't gat that Rev King Liver!!

His church head quaters was in the south west because he learnt the trade there.

completely and totally guttered.

  i hate most nigerian christains simply because they r totally silly and would continue to follow blindly. idiotssssss

Since we all know that Akingbola and Ibru were looting the public silly through their banks and donating part of it to the church, I personally think the church should refund this money back to the govt.


Returning the loot to the GOVT will BE KEITASTHROHICAL as that will be another LONG THING[img][/img]

Tudór:

Isnt it funny that the ''church'' which is supposed the be the ''body of christ'' worshipping in ''spirit and truth'' and here you are trying to maneouver and find loop holes and technicalities in law, put burden of proof on prosecutors etc.

There is no loop hole here - there is no evidence that Akingbola gave allegedly stolen money to RCCG. No church I know is set up as an investigative body to verify income of it's members. The issue here is that if you have a rule for Akingbola (i.e. verifying his income) why not try to establish whether the market woman who gave her offering cheated her customer at the market? Where does it stop? Leave people to their own consciences or to the legal systems to decide. The church's role is not to determine who is guilty in secular affairs.

The church is supposed to work based on the laws of God and the spirit, anything contrary to that no matter how acceptable to the secular world is a no go.

Agreed.

The church is to be holy and pure and God does NOT accept the offerings of thieves whether it be the legally acquired portion or the loot. I repeat God does NOT accept the offerings of thieves. So what business does the church have keeping the money from these men anyway? Deluding themselves and asking that the government prove the gifts and jet donations where from his loot. Does it really matter which to God?

Agreed again.

To declare them 'thieves' when the facts of the matter are still in dispute would be presumptive. Is the Church now a legal body to declare people thieves?

In the story of ananias in Acts Chapter 5 after the whole scenario it says in verse 11 '' And Great Fear came upon the church and all who heard these things.''

That singular event brought great fear upon the church and told people outrightly it was wrong to lie. Action speaks louder than words. If RCCG decided to return all gifts and money given by erastus as is the right thing to do, wont that send a good message to the church? Wont that make it outrightly clear that the body of christ will NOT be associated with thieves in any way?

The Spirit of God intervened in that situation and delivered instant judgement - that same Spirit is still at work today; why not leave the Spirit to decide?

Sadly,  all we see are die hard attempts to keep money given by thieves (money that God didnt accept in the first place) and making excuses like ''no its the legal income he gave us'' . Pity

There is no die hard attempt - seeking to place the burden of proof on the church makes no sense here, since it is neither vested with the power or authority to determine if the allegations are true or not.

Even President Obama during his campaign when it emerged one of his donors was involved in financial irregularities, He refunded all donations made by the fellow.
He wasnt making excuses claiming the donations came from the dude's legal income. If obama can be that morally conscious, how much more the church?

Obama wasn't being morally conscious - he was engaged in a popularity battle. Anything that could be deemed detrimental to his goal of being elected was removed. Besides, the fellow involved in financial irregularities was probably convicted no?

To surmise, this thread is talking about 'looted offering' - if we can't even establish in the first instance that it is in fact looted offering (something only the investigating agencies can do) then there is no basis for any return.

PS - The church has not made any 'excuses'. I have simply examined the practicality of 'returning the looted offering'. and given a personal opinion Such a return must be sufficiently identified before it can be carried out.

^^ Was this kind of investigation done on Abacha, Madoff and co to determine which of the money was from scams/looting and which was from legal means

I am surprise at so called men of God, they collect money from politicians without investigating the sources of the money donated to them.

dayokanu:

Question: Do RCCG need to wait for Police to come hound them before they do what is right? What is right to me means returning stolen money back to the rightful owners.

It is all good to pontificate about the 'rightful owner' and 'stolen money' but let's get away from high sounding words and get down to the nitty gritty:

How much was stolen? Who was it stolen from? How much stolen money was given to RCCG? If you can answer these questions, I am sure RCCG will return the money

RCCG and Adeboye have become an avenue for the CEO's and Politicians to launder money because they know their paddy that keeps the loot for them is beyond investigation.

This is a laughable comment not based on any reality. Again I ask, since when did RCCG become a bank where people withdraw money from after making contributions? Is this what you know for a fact or a figment of your imagination?

Its like keeping proceeds of robbery with a Pastor since we know the Priest wont be searched.

Don't be silly - you can't reclaim monies given to charitable organisations.

There was no evidence that the money Abacha kept in Swiss banks were specifically looted funds, They could have been proceeds from business, Salary as GOC, Head of state or a General of close to 20yrs.

That is not true - court cases proved the monies were looted funds, hence they were repatriated. Besides, keeping money in an account is not the same thing as giving it away to a charitable body.

How come we didnt ask these questions when it comes to Abacha but we are now asking for these evidence when Pastor Eunuch is involved

Kindly deal with facts and not imagined situations - Abacha's money laundering was proven in the courts.

if I bring a gun to church or the head of a child, I believe the church is not constituted to investigate what I am dong with guns or beheaded corpse thats the Police work right?

The church is NOT - it can only report the offending party to the police for investigation.

A man who stole his bank and depositors We are now debating whether the money should be returned or not. What happens to the millions who live savings Akingbola stole. GoDaddy is not concerned as long as he can floss in the Gulfstream Jet and sip tea with God

What money should be returned? How much is it? When was it given? Was any given?

If life savings were stolen, let the constituted bodies do what they are paid to do.

dayokanu:

^^ Was this kind of investigation done on Abacha, Madoff and co to determine which of the money was from scams/looting and which was from legal means

You tell me since you are the Czar of reclaiming corrupt proceeds - how much of Abacha's contributions to Mosques were recovered? How much of Madoff's contributions to charities were recovered?

@ Debosky, God will bless you for your contribution on this topic. You have dealt with the issue with great wisdom.
But i must say that this discussion is needless.

And i believe strongly that God himself will arrest Tudor in his own time

@poster
I'm quite disappointed in your statement "Since we all know that Akingbola and Ibru were looting the public silly through their banks and donating part of it to the church, I personally think the church should refund this money back to the govt.

Any key donations the duo made should be returned to the public

Since the 2 were key donors for the jet, and other key financial dealings of the church.

This brings me to the story of a man who was alleged to have sold a generator at Sheraton Hotels and gave 10% to Christ Embassy, what became of the money?"

I'm disappointed because, unless I missed the rulings, no court of law has ever convicted these 2 distinguished bankers as looters of public fund. Akingbola and Ibru, both built an institution from the scratch, into a mega company--that's a fact!
They have been accused of wrong doings by the CBN governor, who has been speculated to have personal issues to settle with these two during his emerging years as a young banker.
It beats the imagination that educated people would be so easily carried away by Sanusi's rhetorics. There's no need to be his echo chamber.
If I missed the news about these people's trial, conviction, and sentencing, please forgive me. If however, they have not been tried, and found guilty in a court of law, please refer to that as the "accussed".

Some people are so foolish and na over-sabi dey worry them. I think they should also arrest those VCs and owners of the expensive schools his children went and probably retrieve their certificates because they acquire them from stolen wealth of their father or breadwinner.

Foolish Nairalanders

For those guys promoting fear campaign, in terms of fear of God's annointed. Can they pleeeease tell me who the men of God are? Is it people that buy private jets to fly around the world and build huge mansions for themselves in the name of God? what happened to do not store treasures that would rot on earth but store treasures for yourself in heaven? what happened "he who wants to be great in heaven should first humble himself as a babe before men and God"? what happened to the fact that neither jesu nor his appostles amassed wealth for themselves while they lived. Surely every very rich man surrounded by poor people is not a man of God but an oppressor. Open your eyes and see people because religion is a great mystery, but to anyone that is righteous, knowledge is accorded unto such. Nigerian religious leaders are dominated by criminals (sorry but it is true, and maybe that is how it is all over the world). when you walk through the streets of aba on sunday mornings you would surely forgive me for saying that.Righteous christains, muslims, hindus, budists are going to be accepted by God. Don't be fooled, open your eyes and see the world as it is. It is full of lies. The only person that you can trust is God. Beware of false prohets and brainwashers. He who hath an ear, let him hear the word of God.

For those guys promoting fear campaign, in terms of fear of God's annointed. Can they pleeeease tell me who the men of God are? Is it people that buy private jets to fly around the world and build huge mansions for themselves in the name of God? what happened to do not store treasures that would rot on earth but store treasures for yourself in heaven? what happened "he who wants to be great in heaven should first humble himself as a babe before men and God"? what happened to the fact that neither jesu nor his appostles amassed wealth for themselves while they lived. Surely every very rich man surrounded by poor people is not a man of God but an oppressor. Open your eyes and see people because religion is a great mystery, but to anyone that is righteous, knowledge is accorded unto such. Nigerian religious leaders are dominated by criminals (sorry but it is true, and maybe that is how it is all over the world). when you walk through the streets of aba on sunday mornings you would surely forgive me for saying that.Righteous christains, muslims, hindus, budists are going to be accepted by God. Don't be fooled, open your eyes and see the world as it is. It is full of lies. The only person that you can trust is God. Beware of false prohets and brainwashers. He who hath an ear, let him hear the word of God.

Return wetin!!

He who has stolen before or recieved stolen goods/money, cast the first stone.

hmmmmmmmmm. God have mercy on us (Amen)

debosky:

To declare them 'thieves' when the facts of the matter are still in dispute would be presumptive. Is the Church now a legal body to declare people thieves?

There is no die hard attempt - seeking to place the burden of proof on the church makes no sense here, since it is neither vested with the power or authority to determine if the allegations are true or not.

Luke 19: 1-10

1 And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho. 2 And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich. 3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature. 4 And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way. 5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house. 6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. 7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. 8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. 9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

I guess going by your logic, Zaccheus should have waited for "proof" and "legal body" to convict him rather than the presence of Christ alone being sufficient. Note that the declaration of salvation was after the restitution promise by Zaccheus.
But obviously Adeboye and others like him are not worshipping the God of Christ but something else.

@ Poster, is it just in church they spent money? why dont you got their children's schools, madam's salon, charity organisations they wud have been donating to, clubs etc and ask them to remit the money?

how much is the church supposed to give back if they were to remit the money? who do they remit the money to? EFCC? what has the government done with all the supposed recovered loots?

abegi, make i hear word!

^^^^

How about we start with 10 percent of the total sum the EFCC is accusing them of stealing. I'm sure they paid that much atleast in tithe.

steaming:


how much is the church supposed to give back if they were to remit the money? who do they remit the money to? EFCC? what has the government done with all the supposed recovered loots?

abegi, make i hear word!

plenty questions- one simple answer:

follow the example of Christ with Zaccheus as stated in my previous post except the church is not of Christ.

@dayokanu
I used to think you re an intelligent and informed person, but sometimes, some of your posts are nothing but  shallow and ridiculous. It is one thing to have a disregard for the church institution and those that represent it, but it is a different thing to allow your shallowness to intrude on issue beyond your grasp.

Firstly, do you have any evidence to show those guys gave money to the church? Secondly, Has it been proved by a law court that Akingbola money is gotten through corrupt means or you re just relying the court of public opinion dictated by the media?  Does the church or any institution in the world has an established system or device of detecting which money is goten through fraudulent means? what of the money these people must have been given to other charity organisations like orphanage, must they return all those one too? Or is it just becos of  your disregard or hatred for the church that is blinding your sense of reasoning?

Now, if the premise which you based your arguements on are proved wrong by the law court, would you apologise to the persons of Adeboye and the likes whom your post has wrongly instigated others like you to hurl insult at them? If you claim to know anything about God, you should ve know that men of God however their imperfection are representing God.

Must you always bring the church or God at par with the corrupt system in Nigeria to feel good about yourself?

anonimi:

Luke 19: 1-10 . . .

I guess going by your logic, Zaccheus should have waited for "proof" and "legal body" to convict him rather than the presence of Christ alone being sufficient. Note that the declaration of salvation was after the restitution promise by Zaccheus.
But obviously Adeboye and others like him are not worshipping the God of Christ but something else.

anonimi:

plenty questions- one simple answer:

follow the example of Christ with Zaccheus as stated in my previous post except the church is not of Christ.

Very good answer  too.

Also, below is an interesting exercise in 'logic':

- Akingbola has not been convicted of stealing

- RCCG has not been proven to have received stolen money from Akingbola

- James Ibori has not been convicted of looting

- Babangida has not been convicted of looting

- Abacha was never convicted of looting

- Abacha was never convicted of brutality

- Abacha was never convicted of killing Ken saro Wiwa

^^^

That said, let the pastors continue to assist criminals because grace abounds.

wetin concern me with RCCG.

[size=14pt]When the bible talks of increasing you a 1000 folds, what the spiritual connotation means is vile men, and women of discerning characters would be comatose and confused, because of their incessant and undeservedly acquired wealth they have plundered from society, the whole exercise of stealing, embezzling and misappropriating of funds does not gives a restless and guilty soul peace, that is why there is an inextricable link between pen robbers and places of worship.

The souls of these men and women pricks them with guilt and the only way they can somehow have or savour that innate peace of mind that is elusive to them is by giving away some of those wanton stolen wealth and where else can be more fulfilling than a place of worship.

This harvest is wholly acceptable in many places of worship, for a kindred Sheppard who has been believing God for some respite in her request to spread the word gets it from these vile restless souls, and it does prove a mark of a genuine man of God otherwise every single one of us would open a church tomorrow hoping to get such largesse from these rogues but alas let me tell you ladies and gentlemen, those men of God have put in the hours, in prayer, fasting, and abstinence for these miracles to happen, to the discerning eyes he/she is just another lucky pastor who has connections in the corridors of power OR in high places.

Did the clergy put a gun to the temple of these men before they come running into the house of God offering the man of God the most obscene help one can imagine, the answer is capital NO. (No wonder some of them are prepared to buy men of God  private jets, if that is what the man of God is believing God for so be it after all the bible says ask and u would be giving, seek and u would find, knock and the door would open.)

These men are only trying to absolve themselves from the sins they have committed during their day jobs. Every human being has still got a chance to redeem their souls up to the very last breath before they die, therefore for people like Akingbola and Ibru every Sunday service is an alta call,  whereby they are bath in the glory of the lord by asking for forgiveness, the consequence of this spiritual ritual is their sins are wiped out completely, and from then henceforth they are according to acceptable Christian doctrine and norm are believed to be  as white as fresh snow, we should not forget our God is a forgiving God.

The downside to this spiritual topsy- turvy is on Monday they are back to their old buccaneering  ways but in most cases they will hope to last until the following Sunday where the ritual would follow the same proceedings yet again. These are the ways and mannerism of a restless and guilty soul.

Even non believer’s like Bill Gates have to commute a fair chunk of his vast wealth in fighting Aids and HIV related illness in some countries in Africa  by having an inner guilt of not giving to society what society has giving to him.

Conclusion: Daddy GO, should not give a penny back to whomever because the growth of a church is seeing as a true manifestation and a vindication that the man of God is threading on the right trail, those who are fakes and are con-men fall by the wayside b4 too long, they are only successful for a season and not at all season.
Has Daddy GO gone down when Ibru and co went down, No, in fact that Church is waxing from strength to strength.[/size]

Enigma:

Very good answer  too.

Also, below is an interesting exercise in 'logic':

- Akingbola has not been convicted of stealing

- RCCG has not been proven to have received stolen money from Akingbola

- James Ibori has not been convicted of looting

- Babangida has not been convicted of looting

- Abacha was never convicted of looting

- Abacha was never convicted of brutality

- Abacha was never convicted of killing Ken saro Wiwa

Christ didn't tell Zacc to return the money, Christ didn't force Zacc to return the money - Zacc himself felt convicted and offered to refund whatever stolen money he had with interest. Get the story right.

There is a big difference between grieving a man and grieving the Holy Spirit. Big difference.

And please, as far as I'm concerned we no longer have prophets and men of GOD like the days of Joshua, Elisha, Elijah, Isaiah, Jeremiah and John the Baptist to name a few. I will venture to say that none of our Pastors come close to those men of old.

By the way, even Ibori used the 'touch not my anointed' Bible verse to defend himself. The devil himself knows the Bible back to front so please, quoting a few verses does not make anyone a man or woman of GOD.'

This is about stolen money given to the church and wether or not the church should return it. Let's get back to the issue at hand, please.

Akingbola stole money.
Out of good conscience, Akingbola should return said money.
Akingbola will probably not return said money because he is still contesting that it was stolen in the first place.
If convicted in court, then said money can be forcefully collected.
RCCG has no real reason to return money stolen by Akingbola.
One may argue that RCCG has a moral imperative to return the money, but this is not compulsory and really just depends on their good sense.
Maybe RCCG can donate a sum to a named charity or something. But then they can already claim they are a charity themselves and do numerous charity works.

Summary: Minefield.

omo~fat:

Christ didn't tell Zacc to return the money, Christ didn't force Zacc to return the money - Zacc himself felt convicted and offered to refund whatever stolen money he had with interest. Get the story right.

So, Zacc felt convicted by Christ's teaching; but the RCCG does not feel convicted by Christ's teaching!

Which one of them is Christ's follower then? Does RCCG believe in Christ at all, then?

Enigma:

So, Zacc felt convicted by Christ's teaching; but the RCCG does not feel convicted by Christ's teaching!

Which one of them is Christ's follower then? Does RCCG believe in Christ at all, then?

RCCG didn't steal the money.
Akingbola did.